
A.1: Uh, do you have a pet Randy? 
B.2: Uh, yeah, currently we have a poodle. 
A.3: A poodle, miniature or, uh, full size? 
B.4: Yeah, uh, it's, uh miniature. 
A.5: Uh-huh. 
B.6: Yeah. 
A.7: I read somewhere that, the poodles is one of the, the most intelligent dogs, uh, around. 
B.8: Well, um, I wouldn't, uh, I definitely wouldn't dispute that, it, it's actually my wife's dog, uh, I, I became part owner six months ago when we got married, but, uh, it, uh, definitely responds to, uh, to authority and, I've had dogs in the past and, uh, it seems, it seems to, uh, respond real well, it, it - she's, she's picked up a lot of things, uh, just, just by, uh, teaching by force, I guess is what I'd like to say. 
A.9: Oh, uh-huh. So, you, you've only known the dog, wh-, how long did you say. 
B.10: Well, about a year I guess. 
A.11: Oh, well, uh, is it, uh, uh, - how old is the dog? 
B.12: It just turned two, I believe. 
A.13: Oh, it's still just a pup. 
B.14: Pretty much, yeah, yeah. 
A.15: Yeah, I have a, uh, well a mutt, myself. I call it a, uh, uh, Chowperd . 
B.16: Okay. 
A.17: It's, uh, part Chow and part Shepherd and it, - as I understand it, uh, both sides of the, were thoroughbreds. So, she's a genuine Chowperd . 
B.18: Oh, that sounds interesting. 
A.19: She has the, the color and the black to-, tongue of a Chow, but, uh, she has the shap-, the shape of the, uh, uh, Shepherd. 
B.20: Oh, that's, that's neat. How, about how big then? 
A.21: Oh, she weighs in at about fifty pounds, so she's a medium size. 
B.22: Yeah, yeah. 
A.23: But she's big enough to be intimidating, 
B.24: Most definitely. 
A.25: it is a fi-, fixed female, by the way, 
B.26: Yeah. 
A.27: and right from day one, she was teaching me. 
B.28: Oh, I wouldn't doubt it, yeah. 
A.29: <Laughter> She's the most intelligent dog I've ever seen. Course, I'm a little prejudiced, of course. 
B.30: Well that's understandable, yeah, it's, uh, -
A.31: <Throat_clearing> You know, the first time I brought her home, she was only, uh, was it six weeks old. And I spread the newspapers out in the kitchen area. 
B.32: Uh-huh. 
A.33: But, uh, next morning, she let me know in no uncertain terms that she wanted to use the bathroom. 
B.34: Okay. 
A.35: So, on next night, I spread the newspaper in the bathroom and she used them there. 
B.36: Oh. 
A.37: But it wasn't too long until she, uh, found out she could wait until I let her out in the morning. 
B.38: Yeah. 
A.39: And since then, - I, I live alone, 
B.40: Okay. 
A.41: and, uh, I live in motor home, by the way, I'm, uh, an R V, full time R V -er, and it's, it's such a pleasure to come home at night and you can see her smiling from ear to ear, she's so happy to see me. 
B.42: <Laughter> Yeah, definitely. 
A.43: And, uh, I don't know if you get that kind of greeting or not. 
B.44: Yeah, I can honestly say we do, uh, we, uh, just recently put a security system in our house and so now, uh, in order to, uh, to accommodate the motion detectors we have to keep her, uh, uh, locked up in the, the master bedroom during the day and then she's got the, the bedroom and the bathroom to, for free run during the day but,
A.45: Uh-huh. 
B.46: we've always got, uh, got a nose and tongue pressed up against the window when we come walking up to the front door. 
A.47: <Laughter>.
B.48: She's definitely ready to get out and run around. 
A.49: Well my dog's an outdoor type, she does not like to be indoors. 
B.50: Really. 
A.51: Uh, she'd rather sle-, sleep outside on the, the cold ground at night. 
B.52: Oh wow. 
A.53: But, uh, I do make her come in. 
B.54: Yeah. 
A.55: And I feed her indoors, that's to lure her in, but during the day I have her on a, uh, on a leash,
B.56: Okay. 
A.57: which is, uh, on sort of a run. I have a, a thirty foot cable,
B.58: Okay. 
A.59: running from one stake to another, and then attached to that is a, uh, twelve foot leash, 
B.60: Okay. 
A.61: so she can cover quite an area. 
B.62: Most definitely. 
A.63: And, uh, she's the best, uh, burglar alarm going. 
B.64: Yeah, yeah, <laughter> yeah that's, uh, definite security involved in, uh, in a dog like that. 
A.65: Oh, yeah, she, uh, - it's the strangest thing, though, uh, children, no matter how strange they are, or how new they might be can walk, uh, right up to her, 
B.66: Uh-huh. 
A.67: but adults, if they're strange to her, or, or they look suspicious or something, boy she acts like she wants to chew their leg off. 
B.68: Wow. 
A.69: And I have not discovered yet where the, the line is between children and adults. 
B.70: Yeah, that's interesting. 
A.71: But, uh, she is a great comfort to me. 
B.72: Yeah, I know our dog has had, uh, some different reactions, she's never really been around children and, uh, if, if the child is, is pretty straight forward, um, she's fine. If, if a child is a little intimidated, she'll jump around and, and yip and bark quite a bit, and if the child gets scared, uh, she's still trying to play, but she doesn't completely understand what's going on and we've had a little confusion with, with, uh, with younger kids. 
A.73: Uh-huh. 
B.74: But, uh, you know, that's, it's a matter of exposure really. Um, we, uh, took her home to, uh, my family's place in South Dakota, and she was the one that was intimidated then. There was about seven kids ranging from about, uh, three years to ten years running around the house all at one time,
A.75: Oh, uh-huh. 
B.76: you know come to visit Grandpa and Grandma and, the dog kind of, kind of felt out of place then because she was, she was being fed, and everything else from all directions. She really didn't know how to handle herself. 
A.77: You mean she didn't appreciate all that attention. 
B.78: She really did, she just, uh, she, she was alm-, she was just inundated with, with all the attention. Uh, she, she kind of, she kind of sat and it all in for a little while and then she'd go get back in and try to play and, and what not, but, uh, it was, it was just such a, such a new experience for her. She's only been around one and, and sometimes two people at the most so, uh. -
A.79: Uh-huh. What's her name by the way? 
B.80: Uh, pardon? 
A.81: What, what do you call the dog? 
B.82: Oh, it's, uh, Mitzi. 
A.83: Mitzi. 
B.84: Yeah. 
A.85: Mine is Gin. 
B.86: Oh, okay. 
A.87: As in, uh, martini. 
B.88: Yeah. 
A.89: <Laughter> Actually, it's Gin two. 
B.90: I, I see. 
A.91: Because, uh, when I was a teenager, in high school, I had Gin one, but then when I went out in the world, I couldn't take her with me. 
B.92: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had, uh, a similar, uh, experience. I, I grew up on a farm so I always had, uh, outdoor pets and,
A.93: Uh-huh. 
B.94: uh, the dog I had when I moved to Dallas about five years ago was a, uh, Springer Spaniel, black Lab cross. And he was a real, a real lovable type,
A.95: Oh yeah. 
B.96: but, uh, definitely not an apartment type animal so he, uh, he had to stay home. 
A.97: Oh, what a shame. 
B.98: Yeah, yeah, it really was. He, uh, apparently had a tough time with it for a little while and then he, he got, he came to accept the fact that Mom and Dad were his company from then on, but, uh. -
A.99: Uh-huh, oh well. 
B.100: Yeah. 
A.101: Well Randy, we've just about used up our time here, 
B.102: Okay. 
A.103: and I must say it was interesting. 
B.104: Most definitely. 
A.105: I enjoyed talking about pets with you. 
B.106: Well that's great. 
A.107: Maybe we'll get together again in the future. 
B.108: That sounds real good. 
A.109: Take care now. 
B.110: You too. 
A.111: Bye. 

A.1: Yes, um, I was wondering whether you were in favor of statehood, independence, or the status quo for Puerto Rico. 
B.2: I was a resident, although very young of the sta-, of what is now the state of Alaska in nineteen fifty-nine when Alaska stopped being a territory and became a state. Uh, so I guess I have a left over positive feeling about the question even though I don't know very much about Puerto Rico. Uh, I know that all the things that happened, relative to that territory in Alaska have been very positive, uh, and I have a suspicion that, that I believe that a, the statehood is a good idea whenever you have a territory the size of Puerto Rico one ought either to make it a full-fledged state or, or let it go, one or the other. What is your situation? 
A.3: Well, I'm, I guess I don't have su-, such close experience with, with, um, an area becoming a state as you do. Um, my concern is the economy because as I understand it Puerto Rico has a very low sta-, uh, standard of living or at least, um, annual average income. Um, part of this I suppose is justified in, in that the climate they don't need, perhaps, the heating and the housing that some of the more northern territories need. However, in that case, I guess I would favor status quo. I have been to Puerto Rico and, and found it very, very interesting. I did Peace Corps training there. 
B.4: Oh that's very interesting. 
A.5: And so, um, you know, I saw it, also as a young student and, and it was very foreign in a certain sense, although I had grown up in California and so the Spanish was no problem. Um, it was, it was, you know, very lovely and, and the people seemed very friendly and, and nice. I have, - actually, I work with, uh, a girl from Puerto Rico and, I guess I have never thought to ask her what she favors, um. 
B.6: Your concern on the economy was one in terms of, if it became a state would that put even more pressures on, on Puerto Rico, or pressures on the U. S. in terms of aid or, -
A.7: Well probably more on, in terms of the U. S. Um, you know, I'm, I'm not quite sure how the U. S. copes with this sort of thing. I've live abro-, abroad most of my life, so, I guess I, I've been very cut off. I lived actually in Lebanon, so, I was very cut off from the, the press as I, you know, and be, was becoming an adult. So, I don't know how the U. S. would cope with, uh, a new state that is so very, very poor. 
B.8: Uh-huh. 
A.9: Um, I guess, you know, we'd have a lot of aid, if, if you consider the inner cities of like New York and, and how much aid it needs. I suppose the whole country, or the whole, um, new state would require such aid. 
B.10: I guess, um, we're assuming that, that Puerto Rico would be per capita significantly more poor perhaps than, than say Mississippi or, -
A.11: I think so. 
B.12: Okay, that's something that, that I guess I have not much of an image of other than, than Puerto Rico as a tropical island and consequently large numbers of barefoot natives or something not in a perjuritive sense but in a, in a carefree sense, I guess. Although I'm aware of the political problems and unrest, and, and also difficulties they have. Um, I don't know whether state woul-, statehood would improve their economy. I don't, I don't know that the ve-, the act of being a state would have any impact on, on them. Uh, I guess they would have the ability to do some taxing that they don't have now. But of course if their economy is weak the-, there is not much of a base on which to tax. I don't know if they suffer in a sense of income loss as being, since they aren't a state, whether there are monies that escape them so to speak because they aren't able to tax like a typical state would be. How do you feel, though, about, - well I guess it's to their advantage to be a territory, but, um, I wonder how have, having been in a territory but only as a young student - and my parents were in the military at the time so they didn't have ready negative feelings about being in, in Alaska at the time since they voted absentee. I, I would imagine that it must be a little bit of a se-, feeling of second class citizenry, uh, to be in a territory that large and not being able to vote. The District of Columbia people, for instance are quite frustrated, I think, at times in their not having a Senate representative. 
A.13: Uh-huh. Yeah, those, are good points, um, which obviously I had never thought about. Uh, I don't know, uh, I suppose they also, not being a state are probably freer to determine their own, um, ways of life than they would if, if, - I'm trying to think exactly what is imposed if they would become a state versus a territory. 
B.14: Uh-huh. 
A.15: Perhaps compulsory education.
B.16: Uh, I see what you mean, so that, -
A.17: Um, and taxes <laughter>. 
B.18: Yeah, taxes would undoubtedly be occurring. Uh, there, - I don't know, I don't even understand exactly how taxes are handled in a territorial situation. Um, frequently the laws in a territory are, are in some ways as stringent as they are in other states, I, and I'm thinking in terms of education. But then again each state sets its own and I don't know how a territorial governor takes care of something like Puerto Rico. Um, it's interesting because I haven't thought of them in terms of the problems relative to, uh, economy, uh, I had thought of it more in terms of political, uh, realization and I guess I had automatically made the assumption that, gee, anyone would rather be a state of the U. S. than an independent country so, -
A.19: Uh-huh. Well, well actually I thin-, - one, one thing that I remember hearing in the news the past couple weeks that might be significant is that they've recently voted that Spanish is the official language, which I always assumed it was anyway. So, if they've just taken such action, it would seem to indicate to me either they're doing it because they're afraid they might become a state and want to declare this before they become a state, or maybe because they don't want to become a state for fear of losing the Spanish, or Hispanic heritage. 
B.20: Uh-huh, well that's interesting too. Well it sounds as though you are in favor of, uh, status quo. 
A.21: I, I believe I would probably tend towards that. 
B.22: And I think, uh, having listened to you relative to the economy thing, I think if I were being forced to make a decision I would plead ignorance and wait to do more research before picking one of these. So I'm ul-, I guess I'm ultimately in favor of status quo also at this point,
A.23: Well that's interesting. 
B.24: leaning towards the statehood. 
A.25: Right. What about if, if, um, they demanded to have Spanish as the official language as a condition for statehood. 
B.26: I think I would be troubled, I suspect, I believe that any of our states, - and I, constitutionally I don't think there are any prescriptions abo-, against that decision even if Louisiana chose to go with Creole or something. Um, I don't think there is any prohibitions. I would be bothered by that. I'm, I'm bothered by any tendency to resist what I think was one of America's strengths and that's the, the, the melting pot. 
A.27: Uh-huh. 
B.28: Uh, I, I am particularly fond of a number of ethnic cuisines, but I'm troubled by too close a clinging to, to the past and I'm also realizing that, that a common language, I think, is the ultimate bond of a country. 
A.29: Uh-huh. 
B.30: And Canada, I guess, comes to my mind as they're going through the throes up there relative to French Quebec and whatever. Uh, that I, I think that would be a negative step to make and I think that that they would need to reassess that. Um, I'm troubled even in by bilingualism, uh, in so far that it intr-, it gets in the way of, of, of the melting pot aspect. 
A.31: Uh-huh, uh-huh. That's interesting because although I tend to be bilingual, Spanish based on experience, um, I was in bilingual education in California and I didn't have any problem with my students but I noticed my, my brother, who was quite a bit younger, was learning Spanish in elementary school and he can't speak a word. 
B.32: Um. 
A.33: And so, obviously it didn't work in California. 
B.34: Yeah, but I'm rather in favor of people being bilingual, 
A.35: Right. 
B.36: and I'd be quite happy to see a national law in which every student was required to learn English and a second language. 
A.37: Right. 
B.38: But I'm, I'm disturbed by a country that attempts to be functionally bilingual at the official level. 
A.39: Oh, I see. 
B.40: Um, I'm, I'm concerned about whether or not that causes fractiousness I guess. 
A.41: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.42: Well I think we have gone to time and I appreciate your having called. 
A.43: Okay, well thank you very much. 
B.44: Good-bye. 
A.45: Bye, bye. 

A.1: Well, I am new to Texas, so I don't even know what the law is,
B.2: Uh-huh? 
A.3: in the state, do you? 
B.4: Well, yes, of course, we do have capital punishment. And we've, you know, done away with our, quote, fair share number. 
A.5: Oh, that's right, I think now, that I recall, reading about it in the paper. 
B.6: Yes. 
A.7: Um, you know, different things, - is it restricted to certain crimes? Or just, -
B.8: Yes, it's certain crimes, uh, capital crimes, murder, of course, uh, rape,
A.9: Uh-huh. 
B.10: this sort of thing. 
A.11: Um. Well. -
B.12: It seems to be a disproportionate number of blacks, you know, that get into the system. 
A.13: Yes, I know, the one thing that I think is really sad about it, as I recall, from the articles that I've read, is that if, if people who have been there, <throat_clearing> are going to be killed. - Um, there's people that come to the prisons and they're very violent and, they want, I mean they're anxious for someone to be killed <child>. 
B.14: Uh-huh. Yes. 
A.15: I just, I can't see that. 
B.16: That happens on occasion, it sure does, 
A.17: <Throat_clearing>.
B.18: maybe it just depends on, you know, how closely the crime, you know,
A.19: Uh-huh. 
B.20: has affected you personally. You know, I don't know, or a person personally. 
A.21: No. 
B.22: I think I would be, you know, - I guess, really if I had to say yes or no, I guess I would say, you know, that I am in certain cases, in favor of the death penalty, I don't know that it's a big deterrent really. I don't know that it is. I don't know how we'd ever find out, you know, really whether it is or not. 
A.23: Well, there is so many chances for appeal, that it kee-, -
B.24: Oh, yeah, oh, absolutely, yeah, it goes on for years and years, and costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, taxpayer money. 
A.25: Ye-, it's really sad. 
B.26: Yeah. 
A.27: I don't know, I just think, um, - somehow I hoped that as a people we could be better than, than, um, expecting,
B.28: Yes. 
A.29: the feeling that it - with, - someone is calling for someone else to be killed, you know.
B.30: Yes, uh-huh. 
A.31: Is really kind of bad <child>. 
B.32: Yes it is. It's a tough, tough question. It really is. 
A.33: Um.
B.34: I suspect I would be, uh, you know, a lot more favor of it if, you know, one of my children were, you know, brutally killed, or something like that. Like I say, I think it depends on how personally affected, you know, you might be by it. 
A.35: That's true and there really are criminals that are hard-core and,
B.36: Oh, absolutely. 
A.37: repeat, and never have any chance for, -
B.38: Tha-, that's right. 
A.39: Oh, I don't know, is it, - do you feel at all like, it's a religious issue? 
B.40: Not with me personally. It is with a lot of other people. 
A.41: <Throat_clearing> Uh-huh. 
B.42: It's not, not to me personally, no. 
A.43: Um. 
B.44: No. 
A.45: I don't know, sometimes I feel, - I mean I do go to church and things. I don't know how I would feel about it. But like you say, if it hit you personally,
B.46: Uh-huh. 
A.47: closer at home you would feel, +
B.48: Yes. 
A.49: feel differently. 
B.50: That's a, it's a tough, tough question, it really is. 
A.51: Do you think most states have that or? <child>. -
B.52: Yes, I think most states do have capital punishment. Yes. 
A.53: Uh-huh, huh. 
B.54: But, I think the U S is one of the few countries that still do. 
A.55: That still does it, that's right. 
B.56: Yes, they're only, - I was reading something about it the other day, I think there was only like six or eight countries in the world, that have capital punishment still. 
A.57: Uh-huh. 
B.58: A lot of them had to have el-, elected not to do so. Now I don't know, what they do in place of it. You know, maybe it's life in prisonment or, you know, something, I don-, I don't know how they handle it bu-, I was surprised to learn that so few countries have capital punishment. 
A.59: Have that. Well, and it doesn't seem like very many people, uh, are really, - I mean, there's a lot of people that are on death row. 
B.60: Oh, yes. 
A.61: But there's not very many people that actually, um. do get killed. 
B.62: Yes, a lot of them do get their sentences commuted to something else. 
A.63: Uh-huh. So, it seems like a of people live there, and then through appeals. -
B.64: Yes. 
A.65: Because I know they do frequently, - I mean they cover, cover it pretty heavily on television and the newspaper.
B.66: Uh-huh. Yes. 
A.67: If it finally gets to that point. 
B.68: Right, the first appeal is automatic, so that delays it for a few years just right off the bat. 
A.69: Yeah. 
B.70: There's, there's a lot of, you know, last minute, uh, <sniffing> things that happen cause a person not to,
A.71: Uh-huh. 
B.72: have to go through the whole thing. 
A.73: Uh-huh. So is it, uh, - are we doing lethal injection now? 
B.74: Yes, uh-huh. That's, that's fairly recent, I don't know, how recent, but fairly recent, in the state of Texas. Before that, it was, uh, death by electrocution. 
A.75: Uh-huh, wh-, which seems so awful. 
B.76: Yes, it certainly does. 
A.77: So, it's a little bit more humane, I guess, it is, -
B.78: Yes, it would almost have to be, I suppose. If you, if you had to chose, I guess I would, I am sure I would take the lethal injection. 
A.79: <Laughter> Yes, the other one just seems so terrible. 
B.80: Yes, absolutely. 
A.81: Um. 
B.82: It's a, it's a tough question. It really is. I guess, if I had to say yes or no, I would say, you know, yes. I, I would have to lean toward capital punishment, you know, for certain crimes. 
A.83: Well, do you think that we do it because we want it to deter crime or, it's not because we don't want to pay for inmates to stay in prison? 
B.84: No, I don't think it's a monetary thing. 
A.85: Uh-huh. 
B.86: I think, - we hope that it will be, you know, some sort of determ-, deterrent or, you know, an eye for an eye type thing, or something like that. 
A.87: Um. 
B.88: Some of the crimes are just so brutal and so, you know, useless. This may seem to be the best way out. I don't know. 
A.89: Yes. 
B.90: Easiest way out maybe. No, I don't think it's a monetary thing. 
A.91: Um. Well, um, and I notice that the crime rate was up in the Dallas area <throat_clearing>. It's, +
B.92: Yes, especially the murder rate, its just gone crazy. 
A.93: It's kind of been scary,
B.94: Yes. 
A.95: to think about it and, +
B.96: Absolutely. 
A.97: And you're hoping there is something that will cut down on that. 
B.98: Yes, I wish I had the answer for that, everybody does. 
A.99: You hate to have the dubious honor of being, you know, so high in the, +
B.100: Yes, it's nothing to be proud of, 
A.101: in statistics, 
B.102: certainly not. 
A.103: But I, you know, - we have been really fortunate our family,
B.104: Yes. 
A.105: hasn't had any crime. 
B.106: Yes, so have we been very, very fortunate. 
A.107: And, so we don't, - it's harder to think about the poor people that have suffered that way.
B.108: That's right. Absolutely. 
A.109: And how they would expect, +
B.110: Uh-huh. 
A.111: how they would hope, - I mean you, you hear of people who have, um, committed crimes, and then they get out of jail and they go, and they do the same thing again. 
B.112: Absolutely. 
A.113: And you wonder why they can't just stop it. 
B.114: Uh-huh. That's right. 
A.115: So, maybe you would, -
B.116: Uh-huh. 
A.117: but still I would hate to be on the jury that sentenced someone. 
B.118: So would I, - I fortunately, I have never been in that circumstance, I hope I never am, like, like everybody else. 
A.119: No, <laughter> I know when, um, - we just, we moved here, uh, I from the, I got a summons, jury summons, ]
B.120: Uh-huh. 
A.121: just like constantly, it seemed like, 
B.122: Uh-huh. 
A.123: but fortunately I had small children and I didn't have to go. 
B.124: Right. 
A.125: And it's not that, I mean, I think everyone should have to serve on the jury, 
B.126: Uh-huh. 
A.127: it's just that, I didn't, - I hate having to be in charge of someone else's life. 
B.128: Sure, it's, it's a big responsibility, it really is. 
A.129: And I would hate to have to hear any kind of case,
B.130: Yes. 
A.131: involving a violent crime or anything. 
B.132: So would I. 
A.133: That would be really awful. 
B.134: Yes. Absolutely. 
A.135: Well, anyway, I sure have enjoyed, uh, talking to you about this.
Although it has been difficult but, uh. -
B.136: It is, it's a tough subject, it really is. 
A.137: I'd hate to decide it, but I guess, uh, guess it's important,
B.138: Right. 
A.139: that we decide as a people what, what we're going to do. 
B.140: That's right. 
A.141: Anyway, well, you have a good day. 
B.142: Well, thank you, it's nice talking to you. 
A.143: Thank you, bye-bye. 
B.144: Uh-huh. Bye-bye. 

A.1: Hi. How are you doing? 
B.2: What, I couldn't hear you? 
A.3: I said, how are you doing? 
B.4: I'm doing fine. I'm, uh, just editing a spreadsheet right now. I'm trying to figure out how I can retire without having to work until I'm ninety-five. 
A.5: Yeah. We've been doing that too <laughter>. We're trying to retire in our fifties. 
B.6: Yeah. This is a very appropriate topic for our, uh, conversation today because what I'm figuring out is that I'm going to have to put in a lot more money than what I'm making <laughter>. 
A.7: <Laughter> Good luck on that one, then. 
B.8: What is that? 
A.9: I said good luck on that one, then. 
B.10: Well, we've got a pretty good situation, my wife and I, since our property is already paid for. You know, the main things that I like about the uh, <talking> <<someone in background>> the job benefits --
A.11: Huh-uh. 
B.12: -- would be the, uh, the availability of the health insurance and the availability of, uh, you know, being able to transfer around, inside the organization without having, you know, when they cut off a system and they don't just can everybody that is working on it, like some companies I know of. You know, they give you an opportunity to either transfer into an on going, on going project. -
A.13: So you work for it T I then <music>. <<pause>> You can't say? 
B.14: Yeah. 
A.15: Yeah. 
B.16: What? 
A.17: Yes, you do. Well, I work for D I S D and I don't know what your talking about when you say health insurance, but Dallas doesn't pay. It pays most of mine, you know, now, after you work I think five years, they begin to pay most of it. But then, for the, the family, you know, I put my kids on my policy. It's like two hundred dollars -- 
B.18: Huh-uh. 
A.19: -- and it's gone up quite a bit and they predict, you know, of course, it's going to keep going up. I wish they could go on and pay for all of our coverage, at some point. And benefits, you know, - I'd like to see child care paid for or on-site child care sometime. I think that would be a , -
B.20: Huh-uh. 
A.21: and it would make women go to work sometime if they knew their kids were being taken care of. They could go visit them during the day. What? 
B.22: Yeah that's uh, something I hadn't really thought about because we don't have children. But, I can see how it would be a a real benefit. Yes I do. 
A.23: Well, we keep a shelter, also monies that we're going to pay in for child care too. You know, go on and pay a lump sum and as long as you pay that amount you're okay. But if you paid in more than you actually used, and the same thing for insurance, what you predict your going to be paying for insurance, as long as you pay, actually pay out that amount of money, you're okay. But if you pay out less, then you lose that money. 
B.24: Um. 
A.25: I don't like that part, but you don't have to do that option if you don't want to. 
B.26: Well, that could be, I could see where that would be important. 
A.27: And then we got that cafeteria plan, do you have that? 
B.28: No. 
A.29: No. 
B.30: I don't know what it's about . 
A.31: You can, uh, - well you, - let's see, it, it shelters you're money that you pay for, for insurance. It takes it out of your salary before taxes. 
B.32: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah we got that. 
A.33: Okay. 
B.34: Pretax insurance? 
A.35: Yeah. 
B.36: Yeah. 
A.37: But we call it the cafeteria plan, I wonder why. 
B.38: Um? 
A.39: I said, I wonder why. 
B.40: Oh, it's probably what the first guy who did it, called it. 
A.41: Cafeteria? 
B.42: Yeah. He was probably in the cafeteria when he thought of it <laughter>. 
A.43: <Laughter> Maybe so. Let's see what else can we do? Changes, -
B.44: I'll tell you what we could do. 
A.45: What? 
B.46: We could prohibit people from being hired that are historically going to cost the company money. You know, do a little bit better research on who gets hired -- 
A.47: Uh-huh. 
B.48: -- Because you know, -
A.49: You mean, like for health insurance? 
B.50: Well, not only just health insurance, I mean for the whole benefit of the company. See, I look at it this way. If the company folds, I got to go find a job. 
A.51: Yeah. 
B.52: Okay. Now, if we got somebody in a position to affect the way the company performs, just about anybody in the company, and they're not doing their job or they're not capable of doing their job, then we should find (A) a place to put them or (B) you know, boot them out. 
A.53: Well, that's easier done in a company than it is in, uh, school teaching. 
B.54: Well, frankly, I think school teachers ought to get about ten times what they're getting paid. 
A.55: <Breathing> Thank you <laughter>. 
B.56: What? 
A.57: I said, thank you. 
B.58: Oh. 
A.59: We're both school teachers. 
B.60: Oh, I'm, I'm, -
A.61: But it's hard to get rid of a teacher if they're not good. 
B.62: I know. 
A.63: It's almost impossible. 
B.64: Well, there's two schools of thought on that. You know, I, I'm looking at trying to get into a university job position as a a professor -- 
A.65: Huh-uh. 
B.66: -- I got about eight years of education ahead of me before I can do that -- 
A.67: Um. 
B.68: -- but, once you get that job with the university, you've got ten years of probation. 
A.69: Huh-uh. 
B.70: Then you have tenure. And they can't fire you. 
A.71: Huh-uh. 
B.72: Well, you know, in a situation like that, I don't know if that's good or bad. I do know that I've had tenured professors that were just sorry. 
A.73: Right. 
B.74: And I've also had tenured professors that were the best things on two legs. 
A.75: Well, they did away with tenure in teaching along time ago, you know, in the public schools. 
B.76: But in addition. -
A.77: It makes you more at ease. You know, you knew you weren't going to lose your job unless you really did something horrendous. 
B.78: Well, they, they really can't fire you without cause, you know the governments taken care of that, but, um, what I'm looking at is, you know, there are a lot of teachers that aren't getting paid what they need to be getting paid, and there are some teachers <noise> out there that aren't worth having around as janitors. 
A.79: Right. 
B.80: You know, and I could see a point protecting someone's position, but, on the other hand, I don't think it, you know, that someone that teaches, uh, say shop, for instance, should have to have degree at all. 
A.81: Well they don't. 
B.82: Well. -
A.83: In some places they don't. 
B.84: In some places that don't. 
A.85: Do they? 
B.86: But, you know, you, you get specialized education now, for instance, take computer science. We've got kids twenty years old, right now, that could beat any computer professor at micro computer applications. I know we could. And these people can't even get jobs doing anything besides digging ditches, because there's no comprehensive test that they can take, that would allow them to, to step into that position without having to go through the rigamarole of college. 
A.87: Yeah. 
B.88: You know, I went to college late on in life and I realize that hey, it's nothing but four years of endurance and you might be teachable, you know what I mean? 
A.89: Yeah. 
B.90: I mean, my agree is absolutely worthless. 
A.91: <Laughter>.
B.92: It's my experience and, and my knowledge that, that is beneficial, but then, you know, like I said, I came in backwards. 
A.93: What did you get your degree at? 
B.94: Industrial Marketing. 
A.95: And what's your job now? 
B.96: Well, actually I'm selling computer software. But, the two are mutually exclusive. Because, <noise> the, the experience that got me the job that I got now, was my experience in the construction field, prior to going to college --
A.97: Huh-uh. 
B.98: -- not my degree, which is I think kind of bizarre. 
A.99: Maybe. All right, what else could we change? Oh, I'd like to see flexible hours. And teaching,
B.100: Well uh,
A.101: shared, job sharing,
B.102: We've, +
A.103: more of that. 
B.104: we've, we've already got that. 
A.105: Well, see, we've got a little bit of it, but not much. It would be nice if you had full insurance coverage if you were doing job sharing. What else. I'd like to be able to, to evaluate your boss and it really carry some weight, and you get to choose your boss. 
B.106: Well, - yeah. Supervisor evaluations have always been a tough one. Especially in my line, because, you know, my supervisor has nothing to with my job, except to make sure I get my check. 
A.107: Huh-uh. 
B.108: <Laughter>.
A.109: Well, so you get to evaluate him though? 
B.110: Well, not really. You know, I mean, there's, what's to evaluate about him, you know, I mean, my, my, supervisor level is like practically zero. I run the whole show. And when I need something, I tell my boss and he gets it for me, because he knows, that I know, what I'm doing. 
A.111: Yeah. 
B.112: You know, and uh, that, that is something that I think needs to be expanded on, specially in the large market place. You know, the major corporation, because so often, you know, you get a guy who's got eight or nine or ten people working for him in separate areas --
A.113: Yeah. 
B.114: -- so to speak. You know, it's, it's hard for me to, you know, especially since I'm in marketing sales, you know, I make more than my boss. Because he's salary and I'm not. I make as much as I earn. You know, if I don't make a sale, I don't make anything <laughter>. 
A.115: Huh-uh. 
B.116: Yeah. Well it's tough, but, uh, you know, there are requirements, and quotas, what not, for me to make, but, um, the bottom line on, on that kind of thing is, you know, we have a lot of people, especially in major corporations, who aren't doing a damn thing. They're just there. You know, the work they do could be totally eliminated, and not that they aren't worth or not that they aren't trying or anything. But, it's just that their jobs are useless. Take, for instance, um, a large construction company I used to work for. Ed Swampers. Swampers is a guy, who's in the union. He's a laborer. And he's assigned to, -

B.1: Okay, in order to make the, uh, curried chicken, I just fried the chicken,
A.2: Uh-huh. 
B.3: until it was nice and brown, you know make sure it's nice and brown on both sides and then you take it out of the fat and you, you let the chicken you fried kind of drain, so that a lot of the oil comes out of it <cough>. 
A.4: Uh-huh. 
B.5: And then you, you, uh, pour most of the, all of the oil out of the pan and you kind of clean it out and you put back maybe two tablespoons full of the oil and saute some, um, bell peppers and onions in, in that little bit of oil. Maybe one tablespoon or two tablespoons, let that brown, then put all of the chicken back in there. And then you, uh, mix flour and a cup of water, maybe, uh, one tablespoon of flour and a cup of water. Stir it real, real well. 
A.6: Uh-huh. 
B.7: Then you, uh, pour that in there, you know, to make the gravy. And you let it come to a boil again and then you let it simmer and you add, uh, about a tablespoon of, what I'm using now is Jamaican curry powder. 
A.8: Oh. 
B.9: And that's going to, it's going to be really good <laughter>. 
A.10: That's very spicy, too. 
B.11: Yeah, it's, -
A.12: I mean these bell peppers and curry. 
B.13: Right, and then if you like it really hot, you can add some hot, hot peppers and hot sauce and all that kind of stuff. 
A.14: Oh, that sounds really good. 
B.15: Yeah. 
A.16: Huh. I guess it was, - is this dinner time for you? 
B.17: Uh, well it will be in a little while, I'm trying to get it, get it ready early. 
A.18: All done in advance, yeah. That's um, <throat_clearing> - I, uh, I'm, I'm not that great a cook but I was single until I was thirty so I did cook a little, you know. 
B.19: Oh. 
A.20: Uh, and I cook a little bit now. What I like to do mostly is stir fries and my wife normally says, oh, Tom, why, why don't you make a stir fry tonight and so we even, we just were recently married so we have a stir fry pan sort of like a big wok. 
B.21: Uh-huh. 
A.22: And we do a lot of, um, stir fry vegetables. 
B.23: What kind of wok do you have, is it, is it a real Chinese wok. 
A.24: It's, it's called a stir fry pan and it, and it fits right on your, uh, st-, it fits right on your burner, whether it's gas or electric so it's, it has a flatter bottom than a normal wok does. 
B.25: Uh-huh. I see. 
A.26: And, um, normally what happ-, what we do is, um, just, you know, like two tablespoons of oil, maybe sesame oil or some other type of oil than just regular oi-, vegetable oil. But I will use peanut, peanut oil, or things. And then we just stir fry broccoli and carrots and, um, green peppers, and, um, maybe put in a little bit of, um garlic and ginger, uh, beforehand. That gives, uh, uh, uh, spicier flavor and then after the stir fry is over, just mix in, um, a little bit of, uh, sometimes chicken broth,
B.27: Yeah. 
A.28: and corn starch and soy sauce and that sort of makes a, uh, a glaze,
B.29: Uh-huh. 
A.30: that sticks to the, the vegetables, I've used, - you turn them over. A lot of times when we do stir fry we just put in tofu, we don't put in meat,
B.31: Uh-huh. 
A.32: cause I guess we're, I'm not - but, uh, she likes to watch all the, how much red meat and things, so. We'll do, a lot of times vegetarian. 
B.33: Yeah. 
A.34: But it's a real good meal because you have squash and broccoli and, uh, carrots and celery and green peppers and, um, oh, gee, mushrooms. 
B.35: Oh that's, +
A.36: It's, it's a pretty big - and we put that over rice. 
B.37: That sounds real good except the squash, I just don't like squash. 
A.38: Oh, you don't <laughter>. 
B.39: I never did. <laughter> My mother used to cook a whole pan full of squash and she'd have squash and corn bread <laughter>. 
A.40: Oh. 
B.41: And maybe some, she'd have chicken or something. 
A.42: Uh-huh. 
B.43: And I'd just be, -
A.44: Yeah, see, we never, in fact I never had squash growing up. My, my wife eats more vegetables, ate more vegetable than I did growing up. I'm, I'm from Pittsburgh and Pittsburgh is a very meat and potato town. 
B.45: Uh-huh. 
A.46: Yeah, recipes in Pittsburgh consisted of red meat and a potato. 
B.47: Uh-huh. 
A.48: Red meat and a potato. 
B.49: Oh, that sounds good. We, we were from North Carolina and we had a garden and my mother would, would, uh, grow the squash and she'd grow white potatoes and onions and cabbage and collards and all kinds of, -
A.50: Oh, she had all of those types of vegetables. 
B.51: Right. 
A.52: See, never, no vegetables in my family. 
B.53: Wow. 
A.54: Yeah, it was really funny. 
B.55: You wouldn't believe it, we even raised chickens <laughter>. 
A.56: <Laughter> Well that was a real farm. 
B.57: You ever seen anybody kill a chicken? 
A.58: No, but I, I've, I've heard stories uh, I've heard stories. 
B.59: And they put the head under a tin tub and chop the head off. 
A.60: Uh. 
B.61: And then you hear the chicken jumping around under the tub and finally it dies down, you get just a little patter and then it, -
A.62: Oh, this is ter-, - you shouldn't be talking about this right before, while you're fixing dinner. 
B.63: <Laughter> Getting ready to eat chicken too. 
A.64: That's right, you should be careful <laughter>. That's pretty funny. 
B.65: <Laughter>.
A.66: But my dad used to tell stories, you know, about the way they eat chickens but I never, we never, we lived in the suburbs, we, we bought everything in a grocery store. 
B.67: Uh-huh. 
A.68: There was no, - but it was funny, you know, - it - so, but when we got married, you know, a lot more vegetables, a lot more, you know, a lot of changes. 
B.69: Well that's good. A lot of people are eating healthier now a days. 
A.70: I think so too, 
B.71: Yeah. 
A.72: but we just went shopping and we came back with, uh, with, uh, sweets, you know, chocolate covered peanuts and --
B.73: Ugh. 
A.74: -- uh, we came back with sweets. We didn't bring all the healthy food back too. 
B.75: Yeah, I'm trying to learn how to cook, um, deserts without, without all of the sweets, you know, maybe use honey or something. 
A.76: Uh-huh, well that's, that's supposed to be, um, the trend of the future,
B.77: Yeah. 
A.78: but, uh, the cut back. I, uh, recently was over a friends house that's Indian and, uh, she had brought Indian sweets into the office and it was really funny because they were made from yogurt and carrots. 
B.79: Ugh. 
A.80: Yeah, that was a sweet and I was like ugh. 
B.81: <Laughter>.
A.82: This is a sweet. Oh it is, it's a candy, I'm like ugh, you know, Indian candy is not very good. 
B.83: Uh, right. 
A.84: But everything was, and everything, - you didn't notice it at first, but everything was sort of hot. Everything had a little bit of curry in it. 
B.85: The spice, yeah. 
A.86: It was funny, even the sweets did. 
B.87: Wow. 
A.88: When you first took a bite of them you didn't notice it but then after a couple of minutes you could taste it. You know, it had that, that after taste that, - very, it was a very Indian flavor. 
B.89: Yeah. 
A.90: Good, they didn't have, - I didn't like her desserts very well, they were very, yogurt and carrots and pin-, pistachios, pistachio nuts and yogurt. 
B.91: Uh-huh. 
A.92: And it wasn't very good. 
B.93: Well I might have liked some of that I, I like hot stuff, 
A.94: Uh-huh. 
B.95: I really do. 
A.96: Yeah, well have we done our ten minutes. 
B.97: Oh is it ten minutes. 
A.98: Something like that, I think we're, -
B.99: I don't know, do we get a signal. 
A.100: No, nor-, normally they just come in and they say you've overextended your, your conversation. 
B.101: Oh, well this is my first one. 
A.102: Oh, okay well that's, - you'll see it will normally, it will come on and it'll say you've over extended your conversation, you now have fifteen minutes to compl-, fifteen seconds to complete it. 
B.103: Oh wow. 
A.104: But, uh, I've been cut off twice. 
B.105: Uh-huh. 
A.106: So I just thought, - in fact I'm just also, - I'm hearing a siren outside I think my, my neighbors car must have got bumped, you know, he has one of those alarms on his car, 
B.107: Goodness. 
A.108: one of the, the neighbor has an alarm on a car and it's going off. 
B.109: Uh-huh. 
A.110: So, I was going to go out and see what they were doing. 
B.111: Well, okay. 
A.112: Okay, hey thanks so much. 
B.113: Yeah, thank you, it was nice talking with you. 
A.114: Uh-huh, and you said this was your fi-, - well you'll, you'll get a couple more probably. 
B.115: Yeah. 
A.116: I, uh, I called yesterday, I, or Friday, maybe I talked to somebody that, uh, I got them on, uh, during the day. It was a housewife and she was home with two kids. 
B.117: Ugh. 
A.118: And while we're talking the kids are screaming in the background, you know, that they wanted something and they were arguing back and forth and she just kept talking the whole time, it was pretty funny. 
B.119: Yeah, kind of hard that way. 
A.120: Okay. 
B.121: Okay. 
A.122: Hey thanks a lot, I'll talk to you later. 
B.123: All right, thank you, bye-bye. 
A.124: Bye. 

A.1: <Beep> Yes, I saw HOME ALONE with some friends just a couple days ago. I wanted to see it, uh, because there was, uh, much recommended,
B.2: <Laughter>.
A.3: for months and months and months and it was a, a genre that I wasn't in the least bit interested in, and I usually, when I hear about a movie that's supposed to be very good --
B.4: Uh-huh. 
A.5: -- even if it's in a genre I don't like, - I figure, well, I should go see it, because if this is, you know, the best of the genre and I should know about it, or something like that -- 
B.6: Yeah, right, uh-huh. 
A.7: -- and I usually come away thinking, no I really don't like this show <laughter>. 
B.8: <Laughter> Yeah, I, I, I, I feel that way when movies are like blown up, out of proportion, you know -- 
A.9: Yeah. 
B.10: -- usually people tell you how good they are, and you always, you know, end up with expectations too high or whatever, 
A.11: Yeah, yeah. 
B.12: Right. 
A.13: Well, the, the problem I had with the movie was the problem I've had with a lot of, uh, I guess, Hollywood movies --
B.14: Uh-huh. 
A.15: -- which is they are, it's a formula movie, and they're making the movie according to certain formula that's a good formula -- 
B.16: Uh-huh. 
A.17: -- but they seem to fall short of, of being really creative with a lot of things, I mean --
B.18: Yeah, uh-huh. 
A.19: -- here's the situation of this kid at home, you know, it's a classic slapstick situation with these bungling burglars trying to get in -- 
B.20: Right. 
A.21: -- and, you know, he did some clever things, but given the size of the house and how clever the kid was, it seems to me they could have done a lot more, I mean, you know, basically stepping on things and yelling in pain -- 
B.22: Yeah <laughter>.
A.23: -- and it seems to me they could have been a lot more creative stuff used. 
B.24: Yeah. I was very surprised that did do a slapstick movie, because that's, uh, not really the way comedies are right now -- 
A.25: Uh-huh. 
B.26: -- you know, all the comedies are more like jokes and, you know, gags and stuff like that -- 
A.27: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.28: -- there's not as much slapstick anymore. 
A.29: Well, I guess it was a, uh, a very successful movie financially, so --
B.30: Uh-huh. 
A.31: -- we may see more slapstick. 
B.32: Yeah, tha-, well, that's true, it's very cheap to make a slapstick movie. 
A.33: Yeah, it is, it is, and I guess you don't have to, but, you know, if you look at oh, - have you ever seen any of the movies? 
B.34: Excuse me? 
A.35: The French movies that . -
B.36: No, not really, the last movie I saw I guess, uh, was, uh, uh, the one about the French, the Frenchman that leaves and comes back, and he's someone different. Um, he's, uh, - well, it's about a man, uh, that, uh, leaves his home and comes back to his wife, and his wife's all excited but the guy that comes back is not her original husband, but, um.
A.37: Um. 
B.38: O'Gear <<phonetically spelled>>, um, I'm sure you've heard of it, it was a very famous, uh, popular movie. Norman Gray, Norman Gear. 
A.39: No, I'm not with you so far, 
B.40: Oh, shoot, I'm going to hit myself after I hang up. I'll remember the name. 
A.41: <Laughter>.
B.42: But, uh, anyway, that was a French movie -- 
A.43: Uh-huh. 
B.44: -- it was, um, that was the last one I saw downtown, but I live in D C --
A.45: Uh-huh. 
B.46: -- well, actually Falls Church, Virginia, outside the city -- 
A.47: Uh-huh. 
B.48: -- and, uh, so a lot of times they have the, the, the, international films downtown -- 
A.49: Oh, yeah. 
B.50: -- but, uh, so this, uh, French I guess are into the slapsti-, I guess they would like Jerry Lewis, too. 
A.51: They have, they have a - Yes they like your Lewis much to the chagrin of sophisticated Am-, of sophisticated American everywhere. 
B.52: Right. 
A.53: But they have this one guy who does slapstick comedy, and there's something about it that's so innovative, you know, he'll have trouble picking up his hat, or catching his umbrella blowing in the wind, or something, but there's something about it that just, it isn't just slapstick, there's something about the human character in it -- 
B.54: Oh, uh-huh. 
A.55: -- and that's what I find lacking in a lot of, you know, like HOME ALONE. There was a lot of the human character when he was home alone and he was trying --
B.56: Right. 
A.57: -- - and there was a lot of human character there, but when it was, the real slapstick moments, him versus the criminals kind of thing, it just sort of lost the human element --
B.58: Uh-huh. 
A.59: -- and became purely a caricature -- 
B.60: Right. 
A.61: -- does that make since to you? 
B.62: Yeah, uh-huh, yeah, I see what you're saying, there's less character development, rather just the, the, the funniness of the gag,
A.63: Yeah, yeah. 
B.64: rather than -- -
A.65: Did you go with kids though? 
B.66: -- and how it fits with the character , right. 
A.67: Did you go with kids? 
B.68: Excuse me? 
A.69: Did you take kids along? 
B.70: No, we went, uh, without the kids, it's was a night out, away from the children. 
A.71: Oh, I would have liked to have a kid with me, I think, preferably someone seven or eight --
B.72: Oh. 
A.73: -- just, just to get a sense for, you know, how, how it affected them.
B.74: <Laughter>.
A.75: especially to come home and, you know, I would have gotten in trouble the next day, I'm sure. 
B.76: Uh-huh, yeah, that, that's true. I, I was thinking about that too, I saw that, um, that's why I watched another silly movie, um, um, with my cousin, was uh, uh, the one about the, um, the turtles, 
A.77: Oh, TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES. 
B.78: Right -- 
A.79: Uh-huh. 
B.80: -- yeah, I saw that with my cousin, just to see what, you know, what the kids are into -- 
A.81: And your cousin's a kid, 
B.82: -- and that is, yeah, he's a little -- -
A.83: Uh-huh. 
B.84: -- yeah, he's, anyway, and that was just excessively violent. I was worried -- 
A.85: Yeah, isn't it amazing. 
B.86: -- it's like golly, if kids start imitating that --
A.87: Yeah. 
B.88: -- they'll knock each others blocks off, 
A.89: Yeah, it was all bloodless -- 
B.90: Uh-huh. 
A.91: -- and the good guys can get hit all day long -- 
B.92: Uh-huh. 
A.93: -- and they have to shake it off -- 
B.94: Yeah. 
A.95: -- they don't, they don't, you know, get, uh, epileptics, that sort of thing from getting hit on their head -- 
B.96: Right. 
A.97: -- you know, it's a little disturbing the violence in these films, partly it's supposed to be a little bit more okay because it's comic book --
B.98: Uh-huh. 
A.99: -- on the other hand it makes it seem like, - I read an article one time talking about even the quote unquote realistic movies, don't have very realistic upsets of the violence. The violence can seem very realistic, but the aftermath is usually not there. 
B.100: Right. 
A.101: So you see people who are severely injured, very, very badly, lose control of body functions -- 
B.102: Uh-huh. 
A.103: -- they thrash around, they scream, you know, uh, it's just a very, very bad thing, and they never present that, even the movies that want to show violence as real, they don't really show you what happens with that real violence -- 
B.104: Uh-huh. 
A.105: -- and I'm not really sure how I feel about that. 
B.106: Uh-huh. 
A.107: Uh, on the one hand I'd like it to be a warning, on the other hand I wouldn't want people who currently get sort of enjoy their violence fixes from these movies to start thinking gee, now we want to see the aftermath all the time either. 
B.108: You're right, uh-huh, yeah, it's true. 
A.109: But - yeah, TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES was sort of the same way, they, I guess they figured, I mean, they know what they're doing, and they make the movies good enough, I guess I'm a bit of a snob, they make the movies good enough to be successful -- 
B.110: Uh-huh. 
A.111: -- and then they don't, and they, but they could make them better, you know -- 
B.112: Uh-huh. 
A.113: -- they could try to make, - I mean, as far as I was concerned, TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES could have been a classic of world theater -- 
B.114: <Laughter> Really. 
A.115: -- , it could have been, you know, - it was, it was innovative, uh, a completely new approach to making a movie in a lot of ways, and yet it ended up not being anything particularly memorable, because the, the story was stupid, and, and then things like that, and they built up, I remember feeling annoyed, again, I didn't have a kid with me, and I remember feeling annoyed that they had this whole thing about the Master and the passing of wisdom, the, from older to younger generation, it was, it was a classic Greek, you know, you know, a sort of, European mess going back three thousand years that they're playing with -- 
B.116: Uh-huh. 
A.117: -- um, and he had to , - and he told them, remember , remember, you were united, you can succeed, individually you will fail -- 
B.118: Yeah, right, right. 
A.119: -- and then there was a big climactic fight scene, and they didn't remember that, 
B.120: <Laughter>.
A.121: they didn't fight together, they fought individually, and they failed individually, and then that was it, then they had to have the Master beat him -- 
B.122: Right. 
A.123: -- and the Master should, according to the classic myth, the sort of Joseph Campbell type myth, he, the Master should have died at the end --
B.124: Right. 
A.125: -- because the, the lesson was passed to the young generation and the older generation is not needed and is reborn to the younger generation, and on and on and on, and all this wonderful mess -- 
B.126: Uh-huh. 
A.127: -- and it still would have been every bit as accessible a movie for the kids if they had included all this stuff that, I, anyway as an intellectual adult would appreciate, it wouldn't have hurt the movie to do that, and it would have make it, uh, broadened the audience that it could have been targeted for, I thought -- 
B.128: Uh-huh. 
A.129: -- but, I, uh, I'm truly enough, you know, I'm truly an intellectual snob,
B.130: <Laughter>.
A.131: to be going to these kinds of movies, I realize that. I mean, to go to these movies and expect them to be, you know, other than just, just good entertainment --
B.132: Right. 
A.133: -- kind of thing. 
B.134: That's true. Yeah, there's not too many that are, uh, that are good just on their, you know, that, that you wouldn't want to change something, and there's always something that, uh, -
A.135: Yeah, yeah. 
B.136: Uh-huh. 
A.137: [ I, I, I, I'm very, I'm very critical, I, I, I'm actually originally from Hollywood, and then, then, then -- -
B.138: Oh, really.
A.139: -- and my father works in films and such, - and I tend to, tend to be hypercritical --
B.140: Uh-huh. 
A.141: -- of these things, and then, perhaps, perhaps it's unfair, because I, I, I must admit I enjoy these movies -- 
B.142: Yeah, right. 
A.143: -- and that's what they're for, but I don't, don't remember them, and I think it's, I think, I can think of movies I have less fun during and then after the movie's over, I remember it so terribly well --
B.144: Uh-huh. 
A.145: -- because it, it had some, some meaning to me or something. 
B.146: Right, exactly, yeah, there, there, there are several movies that hit home like that. Of course the ones I always remember are the, the older ones -- 
A.147: Uh-huh. 
B.148: -- I always like the musicals, and uh,
A.149: Yeah, yeah, they leave, -
B.150: those ones, that just stick in your head. 
A.151: yeah, they leave, they leave some songs with you, I don't know what it is -- 
B.152: Uh-huh. 
A.153: -- but it just, - I mean, I don't know if this is old fart talking here --
B.154: No, it could be. 
A.155: -- or something, because I'm not that old <laughter>, 
B.156: <Laughter>.
A.157: you know, those old movies seemed to have had something --
B.158: Uh-huh. 
A.159: -- that, uh, that was memorable somehow, I don't know what it was. 
B.160: Um. Okay, well, I guess I got to get going, 
A.161: Okay, well, um, thanks for hearing me rap, I guess <laughter>. 
B.162: <Laughter> Got to go take care of the children, 
A.163: All right, nice talking with you. 
B.164: Yeah, nice talking with you. Are you calling from Texas, by the way? 
A.165: No, I'm in California . 
B.166: Oh, okay, the first person I've talked to outside of Texas. 
A.167: Yeah, there must be Texas people, as near as I can tell. Well. -
B.168: Yeah, okay, well, thank you very much. 
A.169: Okay, well, I'm from the . -
B.170: Bye-bye. 
A.171: All right, bye-bye. 

A.1: Okay, we're rolling. I, uh, - what, what would you, what would, has your experience lead you to advise, uh, if my child were thinking of going to the
Air Force Academy, what would you say? 
B.2: Well, I'd encourage it. 
A.3: Uh-huh. 
B.4: It's a good general e-, ed-, education for a, a bachelor's degree. 
A.5: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.6: And obviously, and obviously it's where they don't have a, any post graduate program there, but you get a, an excellent, wide, uh, basis of topics. You know, you get a good broad education out of it. 
A.7: Uh-huh. 
B.8: You don't, they don't graduate the best engineers or the best English majors, but --
A.9: Uh-huh. 
B.10: -- maybe a graduate pretty good overall students out of there. 
A.11: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.12: Uh, 
A.13: How do you feel about, - it must be a somewhat different environment from a regular college. How does that, uh, - how do you feel that is for someone at, at that phase in their life? 
B.14: Well, the <breathing> for some people, it's good because they maybe they need a little discipline, need a little reining in at that, that stage in their life. Uh, other people, - it, uh, it's, uh, suffocating, 
A.15: Uh-huh. 
B.16: you know, you kind of choke on it -- 
A.17: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.18: -- uh, it, it depends on the person, +
A.19: Uh-huh. 
B.20: on the individual, but, uh, the one factor I think more than anything else in this day and age that's got to be a big factor in your decision's just the, the cost of, how much you're going to pay --
A.21: Uh-huh. 
B.22: -- no matter where you go to school. 
A.23: Uh-huh. 
B.24: And if you've been in for twelve years, I'm sure you've,
A.25: <Laughter>.
B.26: you've got a, your share of student loans that, uh, you're probably going to be paying off or have been or, -
A.27: Well, I sort of, - one of the reasons it's taken so long is I've been working all, you know,
B.28: Uh-huh. 
A.29: sort of half student, half working and source of income and stuff, so I'm actually managing to do this with zero debt. B.30: Oh, that's good. 
A.31: Uh, I couldn't, you couldn't do it otherwise. 
B.32: Oh, y-, I mean I know people that graduated, or that I went to high school with that went to civilian colleges and they, they've got twenty, thirty thousand dollar debts, I mean you could have, uh, -
A.33: Yeah, I think if there's any major piece of advice I'd give, is to find a way of getting an education that doesn't incur that kind of debt. 
B.34: Yeah. 
A.35: It's not, - I mean, I remember seeing an article one time about, you know, if the average person who spent that much money going to college just took the same amount of money and put it in a, a, in an investment fund, they'd be considerably wealthier than they would be from the <laughter> job they'd get after college. 
B.36: Exactly. 
A.37: So, it's, it's really kind of crazy. 
B.38: It's, it's staggering when you think that, just here in central New York, is, uh, Hamilton College is just a few miles south of, you know, maybe about twenty miles to the south from where I am -- 
A.39: Uh-huh. 
B.40: -- and, uh, they're looking for twenty-two thousand dollars for tuition and room and board now. 
A.41: Really? 
B.42: A year. 
A.43: Huh. 
B.44: At just a small, - I mean they, they, they are s-, it is a select, ]
A.45: Yes, yes, I know. 
B.46: college. 
A.47: I was actually, I th-, I was thinking ] of trying to get a job there <breathing>. I heard of it. 
B.48: Oh, yeah. But, you're talking incredible tuitions now. 
A.49: Uh-uh. 
B.50: I don't know how many people actually pay the whole shot. Very few I would imagine. 
A.51: Yeah. 
B.52: But, uh, I get, - I just couldn't ima-, - I mean it's more money that I make in a year, so <laughter>, -
A.53: <Laughter>.
B.54: You know, it, you know, - me being one person with a above the median income,
A.55: Yeah. 
B.56: for New York state, you know, - I'm a s-, I'm a second lieutenant in the
Air Force now, and,
A.57: Uh-huh. 
B.58: uh, I, - even as a somebody making twice what I was making, how could you put half of that into, +
A.59: Uh-huh. 
B.60: to your child's education and then just when they make, made, make it to the college years it's, -
A.61: Yeah, yeah. 
B.62: My God, I can't imagine. 
A.63: Well, my, my real feeling about, about the purpose of undergraduate education is it's really the time, yes, you do get an education, you do learn some things, but you eventually forget most of it. 
B.64: Yes. 
A.65: But what you don't forget is the growing up. It's really the period when people become adults. I mean people who don't go to college become adults in other ways. But, really, it's the entry into adulthood, I think. And I think that the best way to choose a college is to decide what kind of environment you want to be fostered in as you become, you know, as you gain new social skills, as you become, you know, more of a functioning member of society. And maybe the Air Force Academy is a perfect, - as you said for someone who, you know, a more, you know, who needs to learn self-discipline and so forth would be appropriate for them. 
B.66: Or, it's also a good environment, it may be good for someone who already has self discipline, who has a certain amount of leadership quality in their own,
A.67: Yeah, 
B.68: that, -
A.69: and want to develop that. 
B.70: And, that, - yeah, the s-, - it's the same. 
A.71: Uh-huh. 
B.72: It can benefit different people different ways. 
A.73: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.74: But, uh, you know, I, I agree with that, because I see people that I know f-, again, from high school,
A.75: Uh-huh. 
B.76: that I still keep in touch with,
A.77: Uh-huh. 
B.78: that didn't go to college and they do the same old things they did in high school and,
A.79: The same patterns of behavior, you mean? 
B.80: Same patterns of behavior,
A.81: Yeah, yeah. 
B.82: same, uh, same socializing, same exact crowd that they hang with and it's like, it's like frozen time, <laughter> you know. 
A.83: Exactly, it's ki-, I find it kind of sad, I really do. 
B.84: It is. It really is that they haven't found anything, anything better that, uh, - or their, their experiences haven't been broadened at all,
A.85: Uh-huh. 
B.86: to, to you know, you know, - it's, it's a, it's a tremendous thing when you sit in a, in a college environment and discuss some issues and really sit there with people with disagreeing opinions and you hear all these different sides of the story --
A.87: Yeah. 
B.88: -- that you never thought of -- 
A.89: Right. 
B.90: -- and, uh, that's another big thing I think people get out of college is the appreciation for different point, differing points of view,
A.91: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.92: you know, or different opinions. 
A.93: Yeah, in high school everyone sort of tries to have the same opinion <laughter> it seems. 
B.94: Yeah, exactly, yeah. 
A.95: Yeah, the, the one thing I think that's no good for anyone is these monster institutions. These institutions of th-, thirty thousand students and such. 
B.96: Oh I, -
A.97: And I see some freshmen wandering around in there and they're <breathing>, they're just like, you know, someone from the country lost in the big city, I mean,
B.98: Yeah. 
A.99: they, they, - I don't see them getting, - I mean when I was undergraduate, I went to a, relatively small school for my first two years and then I transferred to a very large school. 
B.100: Uh-huh. 
A.101: And that worked out pretty well. I went from a, you know, a second rate institution to a higher rate institution. 
B.102: Uh-huh. 
A.103: But the first couple of years it doesn't matter to me what the quality of the education was. I needed to make friends. I needed to sort of learn the ropes. You know, there were things like that, that mattered a lot more and I needed basic, really simple education that you can get, pretty much anywhere for the first couple of years. 
B.104: Well, your education's a lot what you make of it, too, so, -
A.105: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And if you're alienated, - I mean I see people at supposedly really good universities who are just having psychological problems,
B.106: Yeah. 
A.107: that, you think this isn't sinking in. 
B.108: Well, I, I've seen more graduates from M I T and that, -
A.109: Uh-huh. 
B.110: being, - I work in a, in a labora-, an Air Force laboratory and so we've got a lot of, uh, M I T graduates that are in there and they are the biggest collection of screwed up people that <laughter>, I think I've ever run into. 
A.111: Yeah, yeah. 
B.112: Even, even more so, uh, like, military academy grads are a strange lot, too, I, I mean I have to ad-, confess to that. 
A.113: Yeah, it's sort of a, a rare select environment. 
B.114: Yeah, and they have their own quirks and tolerances and,
A.115: <Laughter>.
B.116: you know, certain things that don't bother us at all,
A.117: Yeah. 
B.118: that would drive other people nuts and then certain things that - ways, things we do, - the way we do it that drive other people nuts that, -
A.119: Right, right, sure. 
B.120: But, these M I T grads are off in their absolute own world. It, it's a, - I, I have more re-, I have a lot of respect for M I T master's and doctorate, uh,
A.121: Yeah. It's a top rated institution and now I, -
B.122: degrees, but they're undergrads are like, - I, I'm amazed, at, at that's a lot of them even graduated. 
A.123: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.124: But, uh, I don't know. 
A.125: Well, I, I had known a lot of undergraduates who pick schools because they want the best reputation for a school.
B.126: Right. 
A.127: Not realizing that the reputation for M I T is because of the, of the doctorate research,
B.128: Right. 
A.129: and the professors who go there, and you're not going to see the professors -- 
B.130: Nope. 
A.131: -- <Laughter> you know, you're going to see some T A, you know. <breathing> Uh, so they p-, they, they want, you know, they want the best and they don't think, they think what the best is, is,
B.132: Yeah. 
A.133: reputation for, for research and that's a one standard, but it's not relevant,
B.134: No. 
A.135: to what they need. 
B.136: It's interesting that you mention, - and I didn't think about that before when you were talking, but the service academies have all, all the faculty, uh, for the most part is, is military with a few exchange,
A.137: Uh-huh. 
B.138: instruct-, professors from other,
A.139: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.140: schools. But, uh, having the military faculty is really beneficial because they see it as doing their job and spending time with the cadets there, uh, is investing in the Air Force, and it, -
A.141: Right. 
B.142: or the, the military itself, it's the future officer corps and so, I hear hor-, horror stories from friends of mine that they could never see their instructors, they could never get extra help. 
A.143: Uh-huh. 
B.144: For me any time I needed extra help any time of the day --
A.145: Uh-huh. 
B.146: -- I had all my instructors home phone numbers -- 
A.147: Uh-huh. 
B.148: -- and could call them, you go to their office anytime. I had some instructors that, uh, would invite me over to their house for extended study things on weekends,
A.149: Huh. 
B.150: when I was having trouble with something and, -
A.151: Yeah, you won't get that at M I T or virtually or anything like that. 
B.152: No, no, and that, -
A.153: And you c-, you know, and you can't blame the professors either,
B.154: No. 
A.155: because you look at their job description, you'd s-, you know, - teaching is third down on the list of importance things and, -
B.156: Right, right. Publish first, and the <laughter>, -
A.157: yeah, and, and that's appropriate if the university is trying to do serious research, because it's hard to be a researcher and a teacher at the same time. 
B.158: Right. 
A.159: So I'd say go to a, go to a college that has teachers. People who really are committed to the students and can afford to be because that's their job. 
B.160: Yeah. 
A.161: But, oh, well <laughter>. -
B.162: Yeah, it's, there's a lot of factors that people don't ever, ever consider --
A.163: Uh-huh. 
B.164: -- in, in their selection of a college and, uh, I don't know, maybe, I wonder if, if they enter these conversations that people have been having, uh ... -

A.1: Phil, I guess a good question to ask is do you do your own work, or do you like to do it? 
B.2: Yeah, well, I, um, - about, or just over a year ago I bought my own house, so this has been the first opportunity I've had to, uh, be working on my own lawn and garden, and, uh, you know, when, back when I was a kid, you know, mom would send me out to weed the garden. I, I'd hate it, you know. 
A.3: Yeah. 
B.4: Now, I sort of take pride in, uh, in the yard, and, you know, how the place looks, and, uh, so I don't mind doing it so much anymore. 
A.5: Yeah, so do you have a, do you have a garden, or do you just do your landscaping now and your lawn? 
B.6: Well, it's, yeah, it's, it's primarily just, uh, like landscaping a little bit. You know, I've got some, uh, bushes around the fou-, you know, foundation planning, things like that, and then there's some, just some little flower beds, and my mom grows, - she's an avid gardener, and she starts her own stuff from seed now, and she gets a little over zealous when she is planting these seeds in the wintertime and starting them. Uh, she ends up with so many plants that she can't fit them all in her garden. They have a huge yard and a huge house, and so she brings them up here from Philadelphia and gives me all her extras. 
A.7: Well, that's pretty good. 
B.8: Yeah. 
A.9: My, my sister is very over zealous, too. She's got some really nice flower beds. She puts a lot of time into them. This is my first year in a, in a house where I'm thinking about doing some flower beds and stuff. Oh, we, I've always had crude ones at my father's, but --
B.10: Yeah. 
A.11: -- this is the first time that I really have to landscape a house. His house is more like a farm house. It's not on a main road. 
B.12: Uh-huh. 
A.13: My house is on a main road, and it has nothing <laughter>. 
B.14: Yeah. 
A.15: I mean, nothing. But, um, what I do do, and I've always done it is, - at my father's house, we have, my sister and I have a couple of gardens. I think we figured out total, this is for vegetables --
B.16: Uh-huh. 
A.17: -- about two thirds of an acre. So we each have a third of an acre we do. 
B.18: Jeez, that's --
A.19: That's a lot <laughter>. 
B.20: -- more than, that's more than the property I have right here, that you've got as a, <static> uh, garden, that's amazing. 
A.21: Yeah, well, it's my dad's, and we've had it for ov-, he's been there for a long time -- 
B.22: Right. 
A.23: -- so, um, it just happens they built a shopping center next to it -- 
B.24: Oh, jeez. 
A.25: -- but, um, they put up a nice fence, so we still have a <static> lot of privacy, and we grow a lot of food. 
B.26: Uh-huh. 
A.27: Uh, I enjoy it, um, the gardens are kind of old, you have to step down in them now --
B.28: Uh-huh. 
A.29: -- because we've tilled them so much, but there's still, - we, we, my sister uses probably a fertilizer. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. But I wish this phone would stop screeching, 
B.30: Are you getting a lot of static on your end of the line? 
A.31: Yes. I'm trying, - I don't know if it's my phone. This is bad. It's not getting any better. 
B.32: Yeah, I can't even hear what you're <static>, -
A.33: Oh, okay. 
B.34: Oh jeez, it's gone. 
A.35: I don't see, I don't think my phone really does that, but every time I have this phone is a little weird, I mean it's been dropped on the floor a hundred times. 
B.36: Well, I don't know, there was - well, whatever it was, there was a second there I couldn't even hear what you were saying, but, um, -
A.37: Yeah, I was beating on the phone going, Can you hear me. 
B.38: Yeah, I guess I was having a hard time there too. I thought it sounded, - well, I guess we better stick to the subject --
A.39: Yeah. 
B.40: -- for the benefit of the people uh, uh, doing this work. But, uh, - yeah, I mean, that's a heck of a pla-, - you must have a lot of different stuff you get out of there, especially up in Vermont there, you should have, uh, some really nice soil. 
A.41: Yeah, we grow a lot of, uh, the basic, corn, potatoes. 
B.42: Uh-huh. 
A.43: She likes to really get into her pumpkins and see how many she can grow.
Bas-, corn, potatoes, and, uh, acorn squash are good winter keepers. 
B.44: Yeah. 
A.45: I mean, things the way we grow are carrots, cabbage, that sort of goes to waste -- 
B.46: Uh-huh. 
A.47: -- you know, we eat it, we, - just too much. She, she starts her own plants. She plants a lot of tomatoes -- 
B.48: Uh-huh. 
A.49: -- I let her do all the planting and putting, and I, I do a lot of the, uh, a lot of the, the ba-, the back ] work, and stuff. But she does, she helps me a lot, too. 
B.50: Uh-huh. 
A.51: She puts a lot of financial. She plans it all out. Beans like to be near certain types of plants. Now, they find that tomatoes don't do well if you put them next to something like, uh, peas, I don't know. Something, -
B.52: Oh, really because of like the cross-pollination, or, -
A.53: No, it's just like, something like an onion and a tomato would go together, but you're not supposed to put your onions near your beans. I guess it's, it's just what scents it gives off, they just don't like each other. 
B.54: Huh. 
A.55: I mean, she, she reads all kinds of books, so. I wish I knew more to tell you why, but, -
B.56: Huh. My mom put, uh, cantaloupes and cucumbers near each other once, and the got cross pollinated by the bees -- 
A.57: Yeah <laughter>.
B.58: -- And we ended up with these, these, like things on the cantaloupe vines that, I mean, were looked like round big huge round cucumbers. 
A.59: Oh, that's really weird. 
B.60: Yeah, I mean, there, these were like some mutant. 
A.61: I've put my cucumbers down at one end of the garden and like I'll make an L shape I've put my cantaloupe. So they've been pretty close together. 
B.62: Huh. 
A.63: But I don't think the vines. They don't real-, they don't have to be touching or anything, like you say, they cross pollinate just by bees, 
B.64: No, it's just the, like the bees and insects will do it. 
A.65: Um, 
B.66: Either that or my mom just had some bad seed or something. 
A.67: Something weird. 
B.68: Yeah. 
A.69: This year, this last season it was too wet up here -- 
B.70: Uh-huh. 
A.71: -- we lost a lot of our root things, our squash and our potatoes, and we got half our yield. 
B.72: Oh, well. -
A.73: It was really bad because of the water. 
B.74: Yeah, when I, - my family used to live in Littleton, Massachusetts, and when we moved in there we had a, a really wet backyard, and, uh, my mom wanted a vegetable garden. So we trucked in, uh, I think it was seven, what was it, cubic, seven yards, cubic yards, I think that's how they measure dirt -- 
A.75: Yeah. 
B.76: -- yeah, seven yards of sand. I got to shovel it all, lots of fun. 
A.77: Yeah, I have to do that, I want to make some flower beds, and I'm going to have a seven yard truck come in with some top soil. 
B.78: Uh-huh. 
A.79: And I'm going to, - my problem is I want to use those rail ties to build up a planter -- 
B.80: Sure. 
A.81: -- but I don't know if the creosote in the rail ties is going to do something, you know, if I want to grow a tomato or something --
B.82: Right. 
A.83: -- in there -- 
B.84: Well, it seems, -
A.85: -- I mean, I guess it'd go with my flowers. 
B.86: I've seen a lot of people use them, you know, for flower beds, but I don't know what, whether they'd have creosote would do anything, I mean, -
A.87: Yeah, I don't, I don't, I just don't think you, - I always thought I'd put a tomato plant in there or something weird -- 
B.88: Uh-huh. 
A.89: -- but I don't think I could really eat the fruit off it without wondering. And I don't know if they make landscape ties that aren't treated. 
B.90: Well, you can get, um, you can get pressurized lumber, 
A.91: Yeah, but they put,
B.92: Oh, that's right. 
A.93: some kind of chemicals in there too. 
B.94: there's even, there's bad chemicals in those too. 
A.95: Yeah. Well, I'm not really worried about it, it's mainly for flower bed, so I'm not going to, no goi-, I'm just not going to put that tomato plant in there. 
B.96: All right. 
A.97: But, I, - yeah, I do want to have a raised bed. I've never, - my flower gardens are always been like on the ground. 
B.98: Right. 
A.99: They don't, it just looks so much better when it's up against the house, tiered up. 
B.100: Well, you can see it a little better and it stands out. 
A.101: Yeah, this house that I have is just a three bedroom ranch and I can tell you there's nothing around it, cement --
B.102: Um. 
A.103: -- foundation all the way around it. Not a shrub, not a bush. There was a lilac tree, and the landlord cut it down and said, Yeah, that's one thing you have to do is keep that lilac bush cut down so it doesn't rub up against the siding -- 
B.104: Oh, gee.
A.105: -- And I'm looking at him like, Jeez. <laughter> People would kill to have a lilac bush -- 
B.106: Yeah. 
A.107: -- and he's cutting it down <laughter>. So. That's all right. Flower beds are all right. Anything, as long as it doesn't rub up against the siding. -
B.108: Rub up against the siding. Uh, 
A.109: Yeah, that's what he's worried about. The trees, or a bush, because lilac bushes, they, they grow fast. Some people, uh, would really like to have them, and then the people that do have them, they spread, and they sprout all over th-, their lawn. 
B.110: Uh-huh. 
A.111: So, they're kind of a pain, but, you know, people who don't have them think they're great. And people who do have them,
B.112: <Laughter>.
A.113: curse. 
B.114: Right. 
A.115: Another thing I have that, um, is weird is the, a locus tree in the back yard. As a matter of fact there's three of them, very badly trimmed, they aren't trimmed at all. 
B.116: Uh-huh. 
A.117: And I can imagine if I had to mow the lawn in the back, which we said we'd do, if the trees hang down - so, and the locus trees have like three quarters of an inch thorns on it. 
B.118: Yeah, they're like, - I think I've seen those before, but I don't remember what they look like. 
A.119: They're a pretty tree, but you just, when you walk up to them they're covered with thorns. So we're going to get a chain saw and limb it extensively so it gets the trees up overhead, 
B.120: So it'll give you room to get under it, sure, 
A.121: <Laughter> Yeah, because I can just see brushing up against it, that it would --
B.122: Yeah. 
A.123: -- rip your skin. It's worse than a rose bush. 
B.124: Um. 
A.125: Many times worse, because of course, it's a tree. 
B.126: Oh, a tree is always something very nice to have. 
A.127: Yeah, my dad used to work on them, so I don't think I'll have a problem. My husband will have problems borrowing one. 
B.128: <Laughter> then you got to get him to, - if he's going to do it, you've got to twist his arm to get him to go do it. 
A.129: Well, if that's not the problem ... -

A.1: Okay, have you ever served as a juror? 
B.2: Never. I've never been served on the jury, never been called up in a jury, although some of my friends have been jurors. 
A.3: Uh-huh. I never have either. 
B.4: You haven't, huh. If you were, uh, what do you think about the whole concept of a trial by your peers? 
A.5: Well, I think it's a good idea. I think our justice system needs a major overhaul, and I'm not sure what needs to be done to fix it. But I think they've got a lot of problems. 
B.6: I think the major thing they need to correct is how long it takes something to get to jury, and to get to trial. 
A.7: True. 
B.8: And I don't know if that's just a pure volumes number or, or what, but, uh. Sometimes I think the jury is ignorant in the facts of law and how things should be determined, and they're too easily swayed by their emotion. 
A.9: Yeah, I think that's true. 
B.10: Hence is possible error as you can see in all the IRONSIDES,
A.11: <Laughter>
B.12: T V shows. 
A.13: Yeah. Do, would you prefer all trials by a judge? 
B.14: No, I think there are certain things that, uh, the jury can determine as far as, uh, guilty or not guilty, but as far as the af-, af-, affixing of punishment and fines and things of that nature, <throat_clearing> I don't know if that is best left up to the jury to de-, to award, you know. Two point two million dollar kind of settlement versus a judge knowing, you know, it's true that, you know, this may be sad and all that thing, but, uh, the jury I think is best, in most cases, suited for determination of guilt and innocence, but not the award of, of penalties and fines and punishment. 
A.15: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think you're righ-, I think they sometimes get carried away by the circumstances and make huge settlements thinking well it's only going to cost the insurance company, and, -
B.16: Uh-huh, that's true. But, uh, I do like the idea of the jury being the, the people who decide in the matter of, uh, if it's a jail term versus life and death --
A.17: Uh-huh. 
B.18: -- you know, the death penalty and such. 
A.19: If they give them all the information. I don't know, when it comes to sentencing phase, I guess they tell them if a guy, if the person has a previous record and stuff. 
B.20: Uh-huh. 
A.21: Sometimes it seems like during the trial part, the jury's not, you know, misses some of the best evidence because they make them leave, and --
B.22: Right. 
A.23: -- the judge decides whether or not they should hear it. 
B.24: Yeah. Uh, it, it, it's kind of difficult, and I guess the whole system is set up to rather let, uh, some guilty people go free than to put an innocent person in, in jail --
A.25: Right. 
B.26: -- although you still hear about those occasionally. 
A.27: Yeah. Do you think the verdict should be completely unanimous by the jury? 
B.28: Um, I don't know. I, you know, I heard a very interesting, - and maybe it's just the T V show or movie I was watching, they were going through a trial, and I think it was like on one of the, the documentary T V shows where they ask for the, the verdict by the jury -- 
A.29: Uh-huh. 
B.30: -- and they went by each one, saying guilty or innocent, guilty or innocent. 
A.31: Uh-huh. 
B.32: And they took it more as just like a majority. 
A.33: Oh. 
B.34: So I, I, -
A.35: Some of them disagree, I mean, some of them said one way and some the other. 
B.36: Exactly, but they took, you know, whatever the majority was. So I didn't know if that was just something for drama or that's truly the way it is. I always thought it had to be unanimous. 
A.37: I think it does have to be unanimous. 
B.38: But, uh. Rather interesting. 
A.39: I know they can poll a jury, make sure everybody agrees with what they said the verdict was, but I thought that they all had to agree or else they, it was a hung jury. 
B.40: Uh-huh. 
A.41: And, -
B.42: I did, I did also. 
A.43: Yeah, I thi-, I don't know how I feel about that. I think maybe, uh, majority might be sufficient. 
B.44: Uh-huh. 
A.45: It's hard to say though. 
B.46: What about in international trials. Do you think they should have a jury there? 
A.47: Oh. 
B.48: I think that would be kind of interesting. 
A.49: Yeah, I hadn't thought about international trials at all. 
B.50: I guess the, the problem with that is there's no true authority in any kind of international verdicts --
A.51: Right. 
B.52: -- like, you know, the old day with the rack. We, they're going to say, Okay, you're guilty and you have to pay Kuwait four million dollars. Well, whose going to really make them. 
A.53: Yeah. 
B.54: Nobody. 
A.55: Yeah, 
B.56: So. But I think it would be kind of interesting to incorporate that concept of, you know, people from different countries, uh, in as international law also. 
A.57: Yeah, I think maybe they'd need to be more knowledgeable though than just your average Joe off the street --
B.58: Uh-huh. 
A.59: -- for something like that because of the cultural differences.
B.60: Right. 
A.61: Things like that. 
B.62: I don't know how, what it would take to be, come up with a true perfect system, or if one exists. But, -
A.63: Yeah. What about uniform sentencing?
B.64: Uh, is that the crime and it's already, some chart and determine the punishment, or. -
A.65: Right. Yeah, like if you're convicted of a certain crime you automatically get so many years. It's not a discretionary thing. 
B.66: Uh-huh. I think there should be a core minimum that they get -- 
A.67: Uh-huh. 
B.68: -- but, uh, I guess there should be some flexibility because every situation may be unique, that the judge can either increase that or keep it just at its minimum, things of that nature. But, -
A.69: Yeah. I wish that when they sentence someone, if they're going to sentence him to five years, then make him serve five years. 
B.70: Yeah, that serves a kind of if they're, I guess, uh, - if you sentence someone to life, life is only forty-nine years, something like that. 
A.71: Yeah, I, -
B.72: And I guess you're eligible after twenty-seven for parole, even though you're in for life. 
A.73: Yeah, and sometimes those people are, are young enough, they can still get out and cause a lot of trouble. 
B.74: Yeah, although I guess it's, you, you want them to rehabilitate and become better rather than sitting in there and being a drain all the time. 
A.75: Yeah, I don't believe that very often happens. 
B.76: No. Because uh, inside the jail there, I don't think there's no real rehabilitation. 
A.77: I don't think so either. In fact, I think they end up worse, because the conditions are so bad. 
B.78: Yeah, it's another war zone. 
A.79: Yeah. 
B.80: But, who knows. 
A.81: I think, I think maybe they ought to just be punished with some, some kind of real punishment, like hard labor for a shorter length of time, you know. 
B.82: I agree, get them out there, 
A.83: Actually make them do something that's not pleasant and do it and get it over with and get back in the, you know, world and not spend so much time sitting around, letting the bad influences of the other ones rub off on them, and, -
B.84: Sure, they should have them go out and doing stuff.
A.85: Yeah. 
B.86: Cleaning up, or picking up dirt, or weeds, or who knows what. Something for the, for the state, since the state is paying for them, they should get some kind of, kind of work out of them. 
A.87: Yeah. Something besides license plates and tiddlywinks. 
B.88: Exactly. 
A.89: Yeah. 
B.90: Trading their lives for cigarettes --
A.91: Yeah. 
B.92: -- those kinds of things. Well good. 
A.93: Well, I think that covers it. 
B.94: I think so. 
A.95: Nice talking to you. 
B.96: Nice talking to you also. 
A.97: Bye. 
B.98: Have a wonderful Easter. 
A.99: You, too. 
B.100: Bye. 
A.101: Bye. 

B.1: All righty. So, uh, do you think Russia's still a threat? 
A.2: Well, I guess I'm maybe naive, but I never did feel that Russia was a big threat to us. 
B.3: There you go <TV>. 
A.4: I mean, obviously there's <talking> the, the, the possibility of, or, was the possibility of war, uh, but, I somehow think that war is one of those things that maybe is inevitable, but, uh, I don't look at it as a threat in the same sense that, that I think this question was meant. What about you? 
B.5: Well, I think, - h-, have you ever read the book NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR? 
A.6: Yes. 
B.7: Okay, you know, like, how, uh, these two, there was like three continents that were always fighting with each other --
A.8: Uh-huh. 
B.9: -- right, and you could picture it as being Russia versus the U S --
A.10: Right. 
B.11: -- d-, during the whole time and what they would do is they would get their prisoners and kill them as soon as they got them because the people there could realize that they were the same as, as themselves, you know, the prisoners of wars were, were the same as the people living in that country. 
A.12: Right. 
B.13: And you didn't want that to happen. And to me, it had always been that way. I mean what happens is, you have a government, right, and this government controls everything, right -- 
A.14: Yeah. 
B.15: -- and then you have the people inhabiting the country and these people have nothing to do with the government itself. 
A.16: Right. 
B.17: And these people are the same as you are. 
A.18: Right. 
B.19: And what goes on is that every time somebody attacks a country, supposedly U S or Russia attacks a country, it's not going to be within the borders of the U S or Russia itself. Like I was telling people, I'm really mad because the whole thing in the Middle East this was going on. In Lith-, in Lithuania, they, they were announced to be a separate country. But, yet, the, the government that's in Moscow told its army to go in there and get those people and the U. S. didn't go in there and try to save those people. 
A.20: Right. 
B.21: You know. It's like you're not going to go in there and say no, listen, there's a separate country. Why, because you're going into the border. 
A.22: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.23: Right. Once you get into the border, then there's a threat. {C
But what happens is you don't mess with us, we won't mess with you, but let's mess with the neutral countries. 
A.24: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.25: You know, and now it's like you know, they're saying other people were, were I guess, other leaders were still crazier about it, you know, like other people, you could think that they might use a bomb here and a bomb there, but Russia has never been known for throwing an atomic bomb anywhere. 
A.26: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.27: And the U S has. You know, it's like they, it seems like they can, their, their army or whatever can, can go in there quicker than an atomic bomb can and do, do the job with, uh, you know, less suffering. 
A.28: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.29: You know, but I think, I think the thing is, is that there, the thing - like they were saying they go, you know, - like Libya could start a nuclear war because of whoever is behind the button. But not the U S S R, 
A.30: Right. 
B.31: The U S S R --
A.32: Uh-huh. 
B.33: -- wouldn't do it.
A.34: Uh-huh. 
B.35: Because they got too much at stake. 
A.36: But I guess there was concern, uh, that I-, Iraq would use, you know, nonconventional warheads with, with the chemical weapons and things but yet it didn't happen. 
B.37: Yeah. 
A.38: I mean --
B.39: Well,
A.40: -- why not. 
B.41: My, my point of view to that is, is that it would have had so much, I mean the attack would have been so complete on Iraq if they had. I mean the first, you can imagine the first, uh, chemical weapon used -- 
A.42: Uh-huh. 
B.43: -- that would have meant a total attack of the Iraq country within, you know, three hours of when the weapon was shot. 
A.44: Oh, so you think it was fear that kept Iraq from --
B.45: Right. 
A.46: -- using it. But, yet the, -
B.47: And what happens is, what happens is, - suppose they get Saddam Hussein, which they eventually will, he's got one less thing to go against him. 
A.48: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.49: I mean, if he were to use that, he might as well commit suicide --
A.50: Uh-huh. 
B.51: -- because he's going to be captured and, you know. - But the U. S. also makes a lot of, uh, you know, treaties with other people like saying, okay, if you give up, then you can come live in our country and we'll take care of you, like Marcos, right. 
A.52: Right. 
B.53: We'll overthrow you, but yet you can still come live here, you know. 
A.54: Right, I don't think we've done that to Saddam Hussein yet. 
B.55: Uh <laughter>, no. 
A.56: <Laughter>.
B.57: No. 
A.58: I think that's, that's, that's not very likely. But yet you know, as, as the parallel Russia is that Saddam Hussein is using the chemical warfare --
B.59: Yeah. 
A.60: -- on his own people. And I guess that makes sense what you said that, uh, within their own borders they feel freer to do --
B.61: Right. 
A.62: -- what, what they feel necessary. 
B.63: Right. 
A.64: Yeah. 
B.65: And, uh, you know, there's, there's just, you know, - like people will go, like they, like the U. S. goes and goes into Panama and what, - see I don't believe in war. That's my thing. I don't believe that anybody should die --
A.66: Uh-huh. 
B.67: -- you know, and so then, you know, you have, - because what happens is, - suppose I'm, I go to war and I'm holding a gun and I'm just looking at myself holding a gun and whoever shoots first survives, you know. But that same person also has a family and, you know --
A.68: Right. 
B.69: -- his parents are going to cry and, you know, life ends there and to me that's ridiculous. You know, I mean, I just don't believe it. I think there are other ways to fix it even though sometimes there aren't, but it's pretty hard to think that, you know, people are just going to shoot each other down and it's legal in a situation like that. 
A.70: Well --
B.71: You know. 
A.72: -- or that, that it resolves anything in the end. That -- +
B.73: Yeah. 
A.74: -- that negotiations couldn't resolve. 
B.75: Yeah, I mean, I mean Saddam Hussein lost so much money during the war that it was ridiculous and he, all he was trying to do was make money at the beginning --
A.76: Uh-huh <<faint>>. 
B.77: -- so and keep his power, but, well, -
A.78: Well, it sounds like neither one of us thinks that the Soviet Union is a real threat to the U S. 
B.79: No, I, I don't think so. I think, uh, they're getting, they're especially getting their life back together now because a lot of things that you saw on TV, - a lot of, uh, inhabitants of Russia would love to stay in their country just as long as they were able to express what they wanted to. 
A.80: Right. 
B.81: A lot of like dancers and stuff like that. 
A.82: Right. 
B.83: They said that they wouldn't leave Russia unless Russia told them that they couldn't travel anymore and compete. So it must be a beautiful country. 
A.84: Uh-huh. 
B.85: It's just that, you know, they won't let you get out and when you want to get out of the country, that's what you want to do. 
A.86: Right, right. 
B.87: So, oh, well, I got to go to class now. 
A.88: Okay, well thanks. 
B.89: Nice talking to you. 
A.90: Bye-bye. 
B.91: Bye-bye. 

A.1: So, what do you think about a year or two of public service? 
B.2: Well, I know it's hard for young people to think about giving up their years, you know, fr-, their carefree years -- 
A.3: Uh-huh. 
B.4: -- but people that I have known that have done that, like from other countries, especially,
A.5: Yeah. Yeah. 
B.6: from Germany and Finland, um, they are just, they have such a better, more mature, outlook on life and I think they're better people --
A.7: Uh-huh. 
B.8: -- because of it, they're much more responsible. I know, um, the church that I go to, um, the young men give two years of their life when they turn nineteen, you know, 
A.9: Uh-huh. 
B.10: they're encouraged to do that, missionary work, and I be-, I really believe that the people that do that are better people that make our,
A.11: You know, I, +
B.12: society better. 
A.13: I really agree with you. Um, I, - uh, though I've never done that myself, I, I 'm, was a basically an education major when I graduated from college and I accepted a job that at the time was just slightly above the poverty level to teach to, um, very rural children in a very low income district and I spent a year teaching there -- 
B.14: Uh-huh. 
A.15: -- and I think it was probably one of my largest eye-opening experiences because I come from nice middle class white suburban home -- 
B.16: Uh-huh. 
A.17: -- and I did it, um, - for one reason I wanted, I was working on a masters degree so I wanted to stay close to where I was working on a masters degree, but also because I just thought that it would be interesting to live some place else so totally different than my own up bringing -- 
B.18: Uh-huh. 
A.19: -- and I, it changed, it probably changed my political views it changed my understanding of the world around me -- 
B.20: Uh-huh. 
A.21: -- and I think, um, in fact, i-, if I had to do it all again I, you know, - after that, you know, you never think of it because, - I guess because I paid for all of my college education myself, I never thought about doing that because I had all these college loans I'd started paying back. 
B.22: Huh. 
A.23: Um, beca-, so that was, that was one reason why I never considered it but now that I'm further along, and I'm still paying these college loans,
B.24: <Laughter>
A.25: I, I think realistically, you know, you can have your college loans delayed now, because I had them delayed because I'm back in graduate school at thirty years old, 
B.26: Yeah. 
A.27: um, I had them delayed because I'm back in graduate school and on that form it says if your joining the Peace Corps you can have them delayed -- 
B.28: Huh. <<Clinking and rattling in background.>> 
A.29: -- and I thought that was, you know, very interesting and I, I would have thought of that earlier I probably would have done, you know, just like, - is that, is this, is that the Mormon church,
B.30: Yes. <<Background voices>> 
A.31: that does that? 
B.32: Yes. 
A.33: Because one of my neighbors, uh, did that in Pittsburgh, from Pittsburgh. 
B.34: Uh-huh. 
A.35: And I thought, you know, that really, - now that I'm thirty years old, I think that one or two years out of my life would have, - probably like you said, to be able to travel some place else whether it be the United States or outside the country,
B.36: Uh-huh. 
A.37: I think it would have been a very good, um, experience for me. 
B.38: Well, I think so, it puts you out on your own and --
A.39: Uh-huh. 
B.40: -- and in a time after high school, um, there's kind of a selfishness, I mean, teenagers in our country are kind of, kind of a year that parents don't look forward to and, +
A.41: Uh-huh. 
B.42: and things like that and I think that it would help people to become,
A.43: Yes. 
B.44: less self-centered,
A.45: Uh-huh. 
B.46: and to be more responsible when you're out on your own trying to, um,
A.47: Uh-huh. 
B.48: thinking less of your own needs but,
A.49: Yeah. 
B.50: of other people. 
A.51: And I think, you know, we have such a need now, you know, - I taught, you know, - I, I think I was paid, uh, about nine thousand dollars to teach for the year -- 
B.52: Uh-huh. 
A.53: -- and I worked in a very rural school district and I, I, one of the things I taught was a computer class -- 
B.54: Uh-huh. 
A.55: -- and these kids, um, you know, - every girl I taught, except for one, was pregnant. 
B.56: Oh, no. 
A.57: Many of the boys in the room had children and they were, they were high school juniors. 
B.58: Uh-huh. 
A.59: And I just, - there, you know, they came from poverty, they were going to condition in poverty and it was, it was, - the school district couldn't hire many people, it was very difficult for them to hire, and I think, you know, in the sense, that aspect of public service for education in some of the inner cities --
B.60: Right. 
A.61: -- for, um, just social workers in some of the inner cities and some of the rural areas where they just need advice on medical, um, things,
B.62: Uh-huh. 
A.63: I think it's a really good idea. And even if it is overseas. See, I never, - I, I tell you sometimes I worry about things over seas because we have such problems right here in our own country. 
B.64: Yes. 
A.65: Uh-huh. 
B.66: It would really, um, - and I don't <laughter> - the people that I've known like from Germany and Finland that have done that --
A.67: Yeah. 
B.68: -- are, they do military service which, you know,
A.69: Uh-huh. 
B.70: I don't exactly recommend <noise>, 
A.71: Yeah. 
B.72: but still they have benefited from it. 
A.73: Right. Uh-huh. 
B.74: And, um, you know, although I wouldn't want it to make people to go off to the military voluntarily - but --
A.75: Uh-huh. 
B.76: -- it's, it has helped them and they are just a lot more mature,
A.77: Uh-huh. 
B.78: than the average student and <<sounds like she's washing dishes>>, -
A.79: Yeah. I think it would also help them if they then went on to college. I know that my first couple of years of college were, um, uh, probably too carefree at the,
B.80: Uh-huh. 
A.81: beginning and then at the end I had to be too serious. .
B.82: Well, that's right. A lot of people they flunk out or they get, +
A.83: Uh-huh. 
B.84: they just get so excited to be away from home,
A.85: Uh-huh. 
B.86: they just spend all there time partying and --
A.87: Yeah, that's true. 
B.88: -- they do a lot of things to themselves that, that we really don't want our young people to be doing and, -
A.89: Uh-huh, that's right. 
B.90: Um. 
A.91: I, yeah, I think, I think this was, this was a very interesting topic --
B.92: Yeah. 
A.93: -- uh, because it's something that, you know, we don't talk about in this country probably enough. 
B.94: Uh-huh. 
A.95: Uh, you know, -
B.96: Be-, because we're so, we love our freedom --
A.97: Uh-huh. 
B.98: -- and our freedom of choice --
A.99: Yeah, that's true. 
B.100: -- and, um, having people <<rattling like ice>>. - But, you know, our, - like in our church, it, it is, your free to do that or not -- 
A.101: Uh-huh. 
B.102: -- you're encouraged to do it because, um, you know, it, it helps you, and, of course, we think it's helping other people. 
A.103: Oh, I think it is. 
B.104: And so, -
A.105: I really think, I think, um, people, - you should, - I, you know, the kids today I teach, - I spend a lot of my time teaching college students -- 
B.106: Uh-huh. 
A.107: -- and, um, I find great disgust in them, in their, in their, um, <laughter> their ] self-centeredness --
B.108: Uh-huh. 
A.109: -- and their inability to understand, um, multicultural or multiracial situation -- 
B.110: Uh-huh. 
A.111: -- and I really, you know, - they don't understand, uh, how other people live, um, they don't understand, 
B.112: And they're preoccupied with,
A.113: Uh-huh. 
B.114: drinking. 
A.115: Yeah, I think that's, uh, just having a good time. 
B.116: Uh-huh. And <clicking>, -
A.117: I, uh, - a friend of mine is a psychologist and he always refers to it as short-term pleasure oriented. 
B.118: <Laughter>.
A.119: I guess he's a technical aspect he likes to apply to it,
B.120: Uh-huh. 
A.121: you know, today's young people are short-term pleasure oriented, 
B.122: That's true. <<Rattling paper noise.>> 
A.123: and everything has to be an immediate reward and it has to be fun. 
B.124: That's really true. 
A.125: Uh-huh. Yeah. 
B.126: Yeah. Well, I, I don't know how that would ever happen here but at least, um, -
A.127: Well, they say, - I think I, um, have read recently that, uh, the Bush Administration has increased the funding for the Peace Corps. 
B.128: Oh, really. 
A.129: Uh-huh. Because I guess because of the changes in Eastern Europe, uh, they've increased funding for the Peace Corps. Some of the, I guess it's some of the peace dividend in the sense, you known, -
B.130: Uh-huh. 
A.131: when they're decreasing some of the military spending,
B.132: Huh. 
A.133: some of that money has gone into the Peace Corps and some of the are the overseas programs. Uh, 
B.134: Well, I have seen a big change, I think, in high school kids that my relatives <<rattling paper>>,
A.135: Uh-huh. 
B.136: and friends, that, um, - I know when I was in high school I had an idea of what I really wanted to do with --
A.137: Uh-huh. 
B.138: -- what my, what I was going to study and at least I had some interest in, - a lot of the youth that I come in contact with are, they say oh, I want to be a doctor, I want to be a lawyer. Why? 
Because they make a lot of money. 
A.139: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. 
B.140: And they don't have a goal, they don't have a goal, they don't have an interest in their own field of study. 
A.141: Uh-huh. 
B.142: They're just looking what's going to pay the biggest cash. 
A.143: Yeah, that's very true. You know, how many, - is it they say we have so many lawyers in this country, and I guess, - I, I live near Washington, being in, in Baltimore, it's something like one in four people,
B.144: Uh-huh. 
A.145: in the Washington,
B.146: Area. 
A.147: area, are lawyers, 
B.148: Yes. 
A.149: And, and I just sort of think that's ridiculous. 
B.150: Yes. 
A.151: Yeah, with --
B.152: There's just too many people. 
A.153: -- with the great needs that we need today in science and biology and, uh, you know, the, the problems we have with AIDS and cancer --
B.154: Uh-huh. 
A.155: -- and, and tha-, how come everybody is a lawyer, you know, you know <laughter>, 
B.156: That's right. Not enough people want to do that to, +
A.157: Uh-huh. 
B.158: for, uh, because of a service that they could provide. 
A.159: Right. 
B.160: You know, if you want to be a lawyer because you know that you can provide a service that people need --
A.161: Uh-huh. 
B.162: -- because you have to have lawyers in this country, um, - but if you're just doing it because you think that's the best way to,
A.163: Yeah, you saw,
B.164: be rich. -
A.165: statistics that lawyers and doctors make the most money in the long run. 
B.166: Uh-huh. 
A.167: Yeah, that's true. 
B.168: That's kind of sad. Well, anyway. -
A.169: That's interesting. Uh-huh. 
B.170: Well, I guess I better go. 
A.171: Okay. Hey, thanks so much for the conversation. 
B.172: Well, good luck to you. I enjoyed it. 
A.173: Well, thank you very much. Bye-bye. 
B.174: Thanks. Bye-bye. 

A.1: Okay <laughter>. 
B.2: If you want to go first, go ahead. 
A.3: Oh, I think, I think that a woman's role has come a long way. We have gone more into the business aspect of, like I say, of, I don't know, working more, and we, I think we've even gone into more the labor aspect of it also.
B.4: Yeah, definitely. 
A.5: With the pay and everything, you know. 
B.6: I feel that, uh, we've missed as far as the top jobs go.
A.7: Yeah. 
B.8: You know, the higher echelon. 
A.9: Uh-huh. 
B.10: Because if you look at most corporations, there isn't a woman, you know, that's on the board of directors, or that type of thing, they are mostly all men. 
A.11: Uh-huh. 
B.12: There may be a few, but very incidental. 
A.13: Yeah. 
B.14: <Laughter> And I really think that it will be a long time, probably, before we see that. In one sense, I'm an older person, in my fifties, so I feel that we've lost some things in the sense that women have to work today.
A.15: Uh-huh. 
B.16: You know, that they are not in the home by choice anymore. 
A.17: Uh-huh. 
B.18: It's mostly, you know, - even if you want to say home, you really can't. 
A.19: <Laughter> And a lot of times you can't, yeah. 
B.20: You know, it's gotten to be a two income family to just survive today between taxes and the cost of living, and I don't think raises have kept up with, you know, a lot of the stuff, you know, as far as your medical insurance and just groceries and gasoline and all, you know. 
A.21: Uh-huh. 
B.22: So I think that we did come a long way in the sense that we are allowed to vote in, you know, like you say, we're out in the labor force, but I think we've lost something too. 
A.23: Yeah, my mom, she's a housewife, and, well, there is twelve kids in my family, so my mom never could really work, you know, because she was kind of pregnant from day one. She never really had a chance to work. 
B.24: Yeah. 
A.25: She worked before she got married, but, uh, she, uh, she doesn't believe in, - she's very old fashioned. She doesn't believe in the woman working unless she has to. 
B.26: That's what I mean, and --
A.27: Yeah. 
B.28: -- you know, there's a lot of truth to that. If you are not going to have a family, then that's fine, then, you know, a career is a smart choice. 
A.29: Uh-huh. 
B.30: And I think it's great, but if you, you have a family, I think you owe the family a responsibility. 
A.31: Uh-huh. 
B.32: And to have children and just get a day care or someone to take care of it, and not really have the bonding process that takes place with babies and stuff, you know --
A.33: Uh-huh. 
B.34: -- I, I think that the mother and the child lose, and I think that's why there is so many problems --
A.35: Yeah. 
B.36: -- you know, with kids today, because they don't have the family roots anymore. You know, I'm not saying that, that it's totally gone, but it's nothing like what it used to be.
A.37: Yeah, uh-huh. 
B.38: You know, in that sense. 
A.39: Yeah, and also like my mom, my mom thinks, - I mean she's kind of right with it, when both partners of the marriage work, she feels that that's taking more away, that's increasing more unemployment for people that need to work.
B.40: Oh, definitely. 
A.41: You know, like for, for the men that don't have jobs, if, you know, she feels if there is women out there just because they want to do it, - she said, you know, they could stay at home, 
B.42: That's right, they don't want to take care of the kids.
A.43: Yeah. 
B.44: And the house and that kind of thing. That's very true, but then they shouldn't have a family. 
A.45: Yeah. 
B.46: That's what I'm saying, you know, I think it's great that women have a choice today.
A.47: Uh-huh. 
B.48: That there are ways to prevent families, you know, like basically there's contraceptives and --
A.49: Yeah. 
B.50: -- all kinds of ways to prevent pregnancies. There is no need to have children if you don't want them. 
A.51: What do you think about that, do you think that, uh, - what do you think about the women that are not having families because they want to continue their business? 
B.52: That's fine, that's, that's the freedom of choice. 
A.53: Uh-huh. 
B.54: And I agree with that, because anyone who has children that doesn't really want them isn't going to be a good parent. 
A.55: Uh-huh. 
B.56: Well, I shouldn't say they are not going to be a good parent. They won't be a caring parent. 
A.57: Uh-huh. 
B.58: Like they won't have that, -
A.59: Or they won't be as good as they could be. 
B.60: Right, that's what I mean, they'll feel like it's a job. 
A.61: Uh-huh. 
B.62: It's not like something that they really wanted. Like I had three children, and I mean I, I wanted every one of them. 
A.63: Uh-huh. 
B.64: I'm not sorry I had any of them, and I worked third shift for a good part of my life just so I would be home with them. 
A.65: Yeah. 
B.66: You know, I had to work, but I tried to make it as painless as possible. 
A.67: Uh-huh. 
B.68: In fact, at one time I worked as a second shift, and one Saturday morning we were all sitting at the breakfast table, and the kids were talking, daddy this, daddy that, daddy this, daddy that, and I was sitting there. It was like I didn't belong anymore. 
A.69: <Laughter>.
B.70: And it was because I had worked for about nine months, and when they were coming home I was going to work. 
A.71: Uh-huh. 
B.72: And I wasn't there at supper time or bed time, or they couldn't tell me what went on at school because they would be coming in the door, I would be going out. 
A.73: Exactly. 
B.74: So we were, I felt I was losing my family. 
A.75: Uh-huh. 
B.76: And that's why I said that's it, I either have to quit or, you know, try something else, so I went on third shift. 
A.77: Uh-huh. 
B.78: And I worked that shift for eleven years. 
A.79: Oh, my. 
B.80: Yeah. 
A.81: <Laughter> Bless you <laughter>. 
B.82: Just so that my kids would have me at home. 
A.83: Uh-huh. 
B.84: You know, and I feel that's very important, it really is, and it's too bad because mothers miss out on so much too. 
A.85: Uh-huh. 
B.86: So I mean in the sense that we've come a long way, yes, but we've sacrificed a lot to get there. 
A.87: Yeah, I, I agree. 
B.88: And, uh, I really think that if, uh, like after the second World War when women went to work in factories and all that, that was like out of necessity, because the men weren't here anymore. 
A.89: Uh-huh. 
B.90: But then it got to be a point where they got some independence. 
A.91: And they just enjoyed the income, the extra. 
B.92: Exactly. A man can afford the necessities, a woman affords the luxuries. 
A.93: Uh-huh. 
B.94: And I notice today kids, you know, - like we had apartments before we had homes. 
A.95: Uh-huh. 
B.96: And we had to walk before we had a car. 
A.97: Exactly. 
B.98: And now kids at sixteen years old, they have their birthday, what do they get, they get a car. 
A.99: Oh, I know <laughter>. 
B.100: And to me, it's like we've lost our values in this country. 
A.101: Uh-huh. 
B.102: We really have, and I, I'm not trying to be, uh, you know, a prude or old fashioned or anything, but I, I don't think if you, - unless you earn something and you've worked for it, and you have a sense of pride about it, - because while I did this in, you know, no one gave it to me. 
A.103: Uh-huh. 
B.104: You will take better care of that, and you will prize that possession.
A.105: Exactly. 
B.106: More than someone handing something to you. 
A.107: Uh-huh. 
B.108: And it's just like college too, I think that if a kid goes to college, and you can help them, fine, but I don't think you should pay the whole way. 
A.109: See, yeah, see, now, my parents, there is no way they could afford to send twelve kids to college. 
B.110: Of course. 
A.111: And so far there is only two of us that have gone, and my older brother has paid his entire way, and I'm on my, - I have six weeks left and I'll, you know, I'll graduate, and I paid my entire way, and that's the way it'll go down the line, and like I don't have a car because I'm paying for college, and if I want a car, - my parents always said if we wanted a car, we paid for the car, and we paid for our own insurance, and I think that's right because, -
B.112: Sure, but I'll bet your values are a lot higher, you know, and your self esteem and the, the way you, uh, you know, think about things is probably --
A.113: Uh-huh. 
B.114: -- a lot more common sense --
A.115: Yeah. 
B.116: -- than these kids that don't have that responsibility. 
A.117: Uh-huh. Like I've had my, you know, - like I know kids up here that have their own cars and money is just given to them, like they still get their allowance, they are twenty years old and they still get an allowance. Well, I have held a summer job, you know, since I, you know, I was in the eleventh grade, and I have had to take care of my own money, I have my own checking account, I pay for my own life insurance, and I know a lot of kids that don't even know, - I mean I tell them I pay for my own life insurance and their mouths just drop to the floor, you know. 
B.118: Sure, they probably don't even have any. 
A.119: Well, if they do, they don't know it, you know <laughter>. 
B.120: Yeah, exactly, and that's what I say, you'll, you'll be so much better off for it as you get older, because, you know, a lot of kids resent things that parents tell them and stuff, but it's because you've been there.
A.121: Uh-huh. 
B.122: And no one can tell anyone anything -- 
A.123: Oh, I know. 
B.124: -- you know, you are going to find out for yourself, but I mean I don't think you should just not listen to advice, even if you don't take it, just listen. 
A.125: Uh-huh. 
B.126: You know, there is no harm in that, whereas sometimes you can't even get that from a kid, you know.
A.127: <Laughter>.
B.128: <Laughter> Just attention, you know. 
A.129: Uh-huh. 
B.130: But really, uh, what do you feel the changes in the future, like with the abortions and that type of thing, women in politics and --
A.131: Uh. 
B.132: -- president someday, maybe <laughter>. -
A.133: Actually I think abortion is going to take a turn where there is not going to be as many, because I think contraceptives are going to be more popular. I mean I realize that they are popular now, but I think, I really think people are going to start using more contraceptives and with the abortion, I don't think there is going to be as many abortions, but I don't know what women will do when they get into politics, you know, about abortion. 
B.134: Yeah, yeah. 
A.135: I think it will be freedom of choice. 
B.136: Well, I still think people have a choice. You know, if you can live with it, and it's, you know, your conscience is clear --
A.137: Uh-huh. 
B.138: -- then I mean all of us are going to answer to it one day, maybe.
A.139: Exactly, yeah. 
B.140: Or maybe not. I don't know. 
A.141: Uh-huh. 
B.142: I mean no one has said for sure, you know. 
A.143: Yeah. 
B.144: But, -
A.145: I think if a woman would get into politics or enough women get into politics, I think it will definitely be freedom of choice. 
B.146: Yes, yes. 
A.147: Uh-huh. 
B.148: Which I mean I think it should be anyway. 
A.149: I, I do. I'm Catholic, and we, we are not supposed to, you know, say that that's okay, but I really feel that it's freedom of choice. 
B.150: Yeah. 
A.151: I do. 
B.152: Because I mean you as an individual, what you do, that to me is your business. 
A.153: Uh-huh. 
B.154: And, uh, -
A.155: And different circumstances call for different things. 
B.156: Exactly, exactly, that's ... -

B.1: Okay. 
A.2: Well, I haven't, uh, you know, - when the war was on I watched C N N and, uh, NIGHTLINE --
B.3: Uh-huh. 
A.4: -- pretty regularly and read the paper and all but when, uh, lately, like the last week or two I guess with Easter <laughter>,
B.5: <Laughter>.
A.6: and spring break with the kids I, um, I hadn't been thinking much about the Middle East and what's going on over there. Have you been keeping up? 
B.7: Well, uh, just really the last couple of days since this, uh, the, U N debate or whatever you want to call it that, uh, voted on whether there was going to be a cease fire. I guess, you know, the thing really isn't over. 
A.8: Uh-huh. 
B.9: They, uh, they had, uh, kind of, uh, I don't know if you call it standout or whatever but anyway they stopped and waited to see if Iraq would accept a permanent cease fire situation though. As I understand it, from the Iraqi point of view this current cease fire thing that the U N, uh, had set up, you know, - the Iraqis are probably not going to go for at all,
A.10: Uh-huh. 
B.11: unless they're just absolutely forced to. 
A.12: Um. 
B.13: So, I guess, from what I understand the thing could just -- +
A.14: Start up. 
B.15: -- it could just, they could take off at any moment without, uh, you know, <laughter> you know, any local, you know, congressional effort or anything else because, you know, it's not really settled yet. 
A.16: There's no official document signed or anything? 
B.17: Not yet. Not yet at all. 
A.18: Well, I, um, when the, when the crisis began last August I began to think well I, I couldn't remember things that I had studied in the past in school and all so I got out like my encyclopedias and tried to read about the history. 
B.19: Uh-huh. 
A.20: And it was really, - what I felt was kind of cynical because it there just hasn't been any peace over there ever <laughter>.
B.21: <Laughter> No. 
A.22: In thousands of years,
B.23: Yeah. I don't know,
A.24: of history. 
B.25: why they expect it's going to start this week, you know. 
A.26: Yeah. 
B.27: <Laughter>.
A.28: That's right. And it just, it's just not people they, - and it's not, uh, you know, - there isn't any real Arab coalition because they do fight among themselves.
B.29: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 
A.30: And they fight with each other and they have such hatred for, uh, Israel and, -
B.31: Yeah. The, uh, the thing that's kind of interesting about this, - my sons in the Air Force. 
A.32: Oh, yeah. 
B.33: And, uh, he came within a quarter of an inch of going, uh, to Saudi, - he ended up in Korea instead and because of the way they split a transportation group out in Lubbock. 
A.34: Um.
B.35: So he ended up going to Korea and his buddies ended up going to Saudi. Well, he's still in Korea and his buddies home now <laughter>. 
A.36: Oh, no. 
B.37: He, he almost wishes that, that he could have gone home. 
A.38: And got it over with. 
B.39: Yeah. 
A.40: Well, I just, there's just no way for us to be involved over there and hope that there will be much peace. 
B.41: Uh-huh. 
A.42: And, um, with, - and that I'm afraid that we would have to stay. 
B.43: Yeah. The thing, uh, the other thing too, when this all started if you, you know, if you did much reading on the thing, you know, Kuwait, the country of Kuwait was just, you know, somebody's <noise> uh, - you go back to World War I when the, uh, Ottoman empire broke up --
A.44: Uh-huh. 
B.45: -- and the British and the French --
A.46: Uh-huh. 
B.47: -- and the, yeah, the British and the French mostly decided to carve up that part of the world and call part of it Persia --
A.48: Uh-huh. 
B.49: -- and part of it Iraq and part of it something else, you know, and they, they split things along, um, geographical lines but they didn't take any kind of consideration into, uh, social or cultural things at all. 
A.50: Right. 
B.51: So, the country of, +
A.52: <Children>.
B.53: of Kuwait really doesn't make just a whole lot of sense except that it is an excepted place, you know -- 
A.54: Yeah. 
B.55: -- it's like any other country, you know, for whatever reason it's, it's actually there. Well, Iraq has had, uh, designs on that place since nineteen twenty-two so, you know, it wasn't like something that just suddenly popped up. 
A.56: Yeah. 
B.57: And it's just that this was an excuse, you know, to make some noise <noise>. Now, something that I <breathing> read in the paper the other day that I thought was kind of interesting was that the Arab, uh, uh, their version or vision or whatever the United States, now, is somewhat changed in that we won, you know. 
A.58: Yeah. 
B.59: Now, now we are a, uh, a legitimate player,
A.60: <Whispering>.
B.61: in the game over there, you know, the, the, - I don't think we can really understand their attitude because there cultures are just so much different. 
A.62: Right. 
B.63: But, uh, we are now a legitimate player in the, in the, in the game because we came in with a certain amount of force and we, you know we defeated, you know - Iran couldn't do it in seven years and we went in and did in seven days what Iran couldn't do in seven years, you know. 
A.64: Right. 
B.65: So --
A.66: Right <TV>. 
B.67: -- that kind of ups our stock in there just a little bit. It makes us more legitimate. So, now what they're saying is that, well, since we won whatever we say goes because it's, uh, a kind of a might make strike sort of attitude about it and, you know, we've got the power.
A.68: Yeah. 
B.69: Which is why for centuries or hundreds of years the British and the French had so much influence in there because they'd go in and they'd win something. 
A.70: Right. 
B.71: And then, and then they could call the shots for the, you know, period of time until the next strong man came up and, you know --
A.72: Right. 
B.73: -- and caused problems. 
A.74: Well, I just, uh, I'm not interested in keeping big military over there and having to go and call the shots like you say. 
B.75: Yeah. Yeah. 
A.76: And I just would prefer that, - I mean sometimes we've said let's keep, we're not interested in what other countries do. 
B.77: Uh-huh. 
A.78: And then other times we jump in and do things and while I'm glad that they, uh, - I, - it was important de-, demilitarize that area because of all the build up armaments. 
B.79: Yeah. 
A.80: I don't, <laughter>. I hope we don't try to keep, uh, in there and try to keep our fingers in the pot and try to,
B.81: Um.
A.82: stay over there because we just don't want to send our people there and make them stay. 
B.83: Yeah. That's, that's the, uh, that's, that's the big thing, you know, we still got a little bit of the old, you know, Vietnam, um, problem, you know, in the back of our minds. We, +
A.84: Yeah. 
B.85: we got this, - we're, we're used to wars where you can get in do the job and get out. Vietnam we never did get out, you know, never did get the job done because they were too ham strung . 
A.86: Yeah. 
B.87: Uh, this thing - they, they gave the guys, uh, the power and the material and the, told them to go do it and they did it. You know,
A.88: Yeah. 
B.89: got in and got out. I'm not sure, the, the big fuss that we're going to see now for the next few weeks I would think is, uh, you know, the, uh, the business with the, uh, the Shiites of all people, you know, in the southern part of the country and also the Kurds because these people evidently are, you know, being killed off by the thousands. 
A.90: Yeah. 
B.91: And whether the, the United Nations, I don't think the U. S. will do it on their own but whether the United Nations comes around and says, hey, wait a minute we know this thing isn't, uh, all that much over, we've got to go back in there and, and be sure that this large population isn't just wiped out.
A.92: Uh-huh. 
B.93: Which is, seems to be exactly what's happening right at the moment. 
A.94: Uh-huh. I noticed that. 
B.95: But, um, you know, -
A.96: Well, I don't think there's much hope for <breathing> a lasting peace over there like they,
B.97: Oh, well,
A.98: expect. 
B.99: No. No, 
A.100: <Laughter>.
B.101: there, there never will be. 
A.102: Yeah. 
B.103: I mean, uh, uh, the only way that you're going to have peace over there, if, if we determine that we want to go in and wipe out every last one of them, you know, until we make a decision to do that there won't be peace but I don't think we want to make that decision either. 
A.104: No. 
B.105: So that's, that's a little rough, you know, we're not, we're not quite up to that sort of thing. 
A.106: No. 
B.107: So <laughter>. -
A.108: Well, I guess I better go I have a repairman just came,
B.109: Oh <laughter>. 
A.110: for my refrigerator, 
B.111: Oh, well, that's, +
A.112: But, -
B.113: that's fun. 
A.114: Yeah. Well, I enjoyed the topic. I hope you have a good day. 
B.115: You too. 
A.116: Okay. Bye-bye. 
B.117: Bye-bye. 

A.1: Good morning. 
B.2: Good morning. Uh, okay, go ahead. 
A.3: , no, no, go ahead. 
B.4: Yeah, I understand the topic this morning is, uh, our policy in Latin
America and, you know, what we've been doing down there. So, uh, as you indicated you don't have too much input into the area it, it just so happens that, uh, our daughter-in-law is Panamanian, and, uh, we have been in Panama and I have worked in El Salvador and, uh, we visit Mexico occasionally, so, <laughter>, yeah, we, we do have a little information on it here, but, uh, -
A.5: Oh, very good, because actually, um, when I was in college I visited Mexico several times, I was in the Peace Corps and, um,
B.6: Oh, uh-huh <<very faint>>. 
A.7: Peru, but, but recently I have been following the Middle East rather than,
B.8: Yeah. 
A.9: Central America <<very faint>>. 
B.10: Yeah, it does seem to have quieted down there just a little bit that's, that's for sure. No, I, - the U S policy, uh, towards Central America as far as, uh, - well, I kind of go back to, to the El Salvador thing because Texas Instruments had a, a plant down there for a while, and I worked in there for a little while, and at that particular time, - let's, let's see, that was seventy-three, seventy-four kind of before the, the, uh, the Civil War really picked up down there, and U S policy at that particular time there was, of course, military assistance to, uh, to the government itself, you know, anything that's, that's anti-Communist, you know, we kind of had a tendency to be pro <laughter>. 
A.11: Right. 
B.12: It don't matter what their excesses were, and I believe at the time that I was down there, that, uh, the government, uh, the Salvadorian government you know, really gotten out of hand yet, the, uh, right wing death squad type situation - I believe that, that was beginning to form but I don't, I, I wasn't really aware of it's being, you know, terribly, uh, you know, at the time that, that I was down there, I think that really kind of developed a little bit later on, but, uh, our policies seem to be pretty much one of, uh, you know, trying to setup businesses down there and use the one resource, anyway, that Salvador had, <throat_clearing>, plenty of and that was people. 
A.13: Right. 
B.14: We didn't seem to be going in and taking anything out of the country other than just it's, it's labor, 
A.15: Uh-huh. 
B.16: because everything that T I did anyway we, we shipped in and it was worked on down there, assembled, and then sent back here, so, -
A.17: Uh-huh, did that have, -
B.18: I didn't feel that we really ex-, exploiting them any. 
A.19: Um, so, you don't, you don't feel that, that we were, um, exploiting in the sense of we were benefiting and they weren't. 
B.20: No, uh, in the particular incidence that I was aware of, now T I wasn't the only ones in there, Playtex was in, there was, uh, several other companies, 
A.21: Uh-huh. 
B.22: and, uh, of course, we kind of concentrate on , there wasn't much to take out of the country I felt like we're going in and taken all their, um, their gold or oil,
A.23: Uh-huh. 
B.24: or bananas or coffee or anything like that, because, uh, it just, - the only thing that they had a great abundance of was, uh, you know, human beings <laughter> and, uh, -
A.25: Uh-huh. Di-, did we tend to, um, change their attitu-, attitudes like sometimes when Americans go into foreign countries they tend to flaunt
American things, Americanism, um, consumer products, T V, the whole works. 
B.26: Yeah, I understand what you say. There was a, uh, - the time that I was down there, I stayed quite a, a bit at the, uh, uh, one of the big hotels San Salvador. And at the time I thought there ought to be a law against American tourists. Because they, for the most part, tend to be the most obnoxious as a, as a group, and I saw this in Panama also, 
A.27: Uh-huh. 
B.28: uh, oh, you know, it's, it's the, uh, the almost stereotype, you know, flowery shirt, shorts, camera hanging around their neck, you know, demanding this, that and the other thing, you know, we're, we're here, and we want this, and we want that, and that sort of thing, that's, that's the stereotype that's very strong down there, you know, the, the, the, you know, that sort of thing, I, I, I believe those of us who were working down there, got a little bit more appreciation for, you know, the local, uh, culture I really don't believe that we were quite that bad, but yet they were having to deal directly with, uh, you know, with the, uh, the local people. 
A.29: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.30: And, uh, but boy there is a, there is a bad, uh, uh, you know, the old ] brash or ugly American-type,
A.31: Uh-huh. 
B.32: situation. And I saw incidences in the hotel where I just wanted to go over and crawl in the corner and say, oh, my God those are, those are not
Americans <laughter> they can't be. 
A.33: Right. 
B.34: But there are and, uh, of course, now I, I do have to, I remember one case where we had some Canadians in there who were every bit as bad, but I mean, it, I think it's just kind of the North American situation . In Panama they've been used to Americans down there for so darn long but I didn't see quite as much of that sort of thing, as Panamanians are just about as <laughter>, as, uh, as as Americans, as far as, uh, creature comforts, you know, they're, uh, they're, they're every bit, uh, - I, I know, when, my, my son was in the Air Force - and he was stationed in Panama, and he married a Panamanian girl, and when she came up here, uh, you know, - she's, y-, kn-, except for the language situation, some of the cultures she's just about an American,
A.35: Uh-huh. 
B.36: you know, is as far as T V and, and, you know, the, the moneymaking part of it and all that, matter of fact if anything, she's worse. 
A.37: Uh-huh, uh-huh <<very faint>>. 
B.38: <Laughter> But, uh, uh, it, it just, there's little enclaves down there where, you know, Americans have a lot of influence and the local population kind of, um, you know, sort of accepts that, but I've also seen the other side of it, too. 
A.39: Uh-huh <<very faint>>. 
B.40: Well, you were in Peru? 
A.41: Yeah, I was in Peru, but, um, I, there weren't, as I recall, or at least I wasn't aware of that many Americans there except for a very heavy concentration of Peace Corps volunteers, 
B.42: Uh-huh <<very faint>>. 
A.43: this was when the Peace Corps first are started, 
B.44: Uh-huh. 
A.45: and it was one of the big targets and, um, I don't, I don't think, at that time, at least, Peace Corps was, uh, an obnoxious group in the sense that, that we were very controlled regarding number of days off and, +
B.46: Oh. 
A.47: and you couldn't just, take up, take off and leave your group and go explore and, and things like that, 
B.48: Uh-huh. 
A.49: but, and I was working actually in the savings and loan program, so, that was quite specialized, although I was living in the slums, I was really working with the middle class. 
B.50: Uh-huh <<very faint>>. What, uh, what area did you live in? 
A.51: I was up in Arequipa . 
B.52: Oh, okay yeah. 
A.53: And, um <<very faint>>, -
B.54: I've heard of it. 
A.55: Uh-huh <<very faint>> so. -
B.56: Well, is, are they, is Peace Corps still active down in there? 
A.57: I don't have any idea, um, probably not, I mean, there were thir-, I was, uh, Per-, Peru thirteen, which meant there were twelve groups before mine,
B.58: Uh-huh. 
A.59: that had gone in and, and some of them were quite big in the sense they were community development, and they were building schools and doing co-ops and things like that, health, um, inoculation and, and things. 
B.60: Oh, has those influences lasted do you know whether the, the things that, that you and your groups before you did, did those, did those live on or were they reabsorbed or how, -
A.61: No, no, I believe they did because, um, some of, some of the, the Peace Corps, uh, that I knew of, did marry Peruvians,
B.62: Uh-huh <<very faint>>. 
A.63: and have been back and every now and then some news filters in that they went to see some of the old things, and of course, the savings and loan program, um, that was, that, you know, that, that just continued to grow. In fact, after my group, - I mean, we were just a very small specialized group, too, to get that going and spread and then, of course, Peace Corps bowed out of that because that's, uh, uh, something that nationalized very quickly. 
B.64: Uh-huh. 
A.65: And the same with the co-ops. 
B.66: Well, that's, that was kind of the, the aim wasn't it, to get it started and then have it,
A.67: Right. 
B.68: taken up by the, - oh, okay, o-, so, you know, well, that's, - I had wondered sometimes, I knew that there was a lot of, a lot of effort and a lot of work went into a lot of that, and I just wondered if, if it lasted, and if it took, you know, like,
A.69: Uh-huh <<very faint>>. 
B.70: uh, r-, -
A.71: Yeah, I've, you know, some of the programs I would have concern about like, um, the language teaching, you know, I mean, why should we push English, 
B.72: Uh-huh <<very faint>>. 
A.73: and a lot of people were down there teaching English and when they talked about Hungary or someplace, one of the eastern law countries requesting Peace Corps to teach language, you know, to me that's a little bit marginal. I did teach economics at the university one night a week, and the textbook was in English, but basically I taught it in Spanish,
B.74: Oh. 
A.75: because, I mean, I really didn't see the point in their knowing stuff rotely and writing it on a test. 
B.76: Yeah, my brother-in-law teaches at, uh, Northern Illinois University and they were in China, here a couple of years ago, and he was over there at, uh, the University of Shah and, and teaching ... -

A.1: So, uh, describe your family budget. 
B.2: Well, I've, uh, for a lot of years I, I've ] pretty much flied without one, and, uh, just recently, uh, we, we set up a budget, and, and we're trying to stick to it. We just bought a new house. So we've got everything, you know, pretty much we know what our, uh, our fixed expenses are per month, and then we've got some ones that are variable, that pretty much stay within a certain range, and then, uh, then there's the ones that you never know anything about, and that's, that's the food budget. ]
A.3: Well, yeah, and to some extent, utilities, I imagine. 
B.4: Yeah, well, the utilities are pretty much, - you can pretty much figure what they're going to be, and one of the nice things here is the electric company has a plan where they'll average them out for you. 
A.5: They have that to some extent here, but it's not quite as good. 
B.6: Uh-huh. 
A.7: And, uh, transportation expenses, I guess you own a car. 
B.8: Yes sir. 
A.9: And you know how much you're going to drive every week? 
B.10: Well, I used to, um, I used to know, uh, fairly close to exactly how many miles I drove, because I, I was very convenient, I lived, uh, nine tenths of a mile from work. 
A.11: Huh. 
B.12: So, so, it was, you know, two miles a day <laughter> to and from work. So it kind of cut my transportation costs a lot. But now I've just bought a new house, and I'm a half hour, and so my transportation costs have gone up by, uh, five times <laughter>. 
A.13: Yeah, I understand that. We, we have a real similar situation. Ours, uh, have quintupled, at least. So there is a real family budget. 
B.14: Yeah, pretty much, um. The problem is there never seems to be enough money. I have three children, and it seems like the more money you make, the more money you have, the more things that they seem to need, and, uh, of course, nothing ever goes down, I mean, uh, I remember, - I have five children total. I have three left in the house. 
A.15: Yeah. 
B.16: And I can remember years ago, when school would start, and I'd go buy all five kids, you know, shoes, and I could get out of the, out of the shoe store without spending more than thirty-five dollars. Nowadays, thirty-five dollars buys about one pair of shoes -- 
A.17: If you're lucky. 
B.18: -- yeah, so I mean things have just really gone out of sight in the last, uh, I guess about the last ten years. 
A.19: Exempt or nonexempt. 
B.20: I'm exempt. 
A.21: Wow, must be nice. 
B.22: <Laughter>.
A.23: Part of the high price spread. Uh, no, well, we don't, we do, but we don't have a family budget. We have the fixed things we have to pay. 
B.24: Uh-huh. 
A.25: And we have the things that are extras. But it seems that by and large the extras just don't exist. 
B.26: Yeah. 
A.27: And, well, you know, the auto budget, car payment sucks a hell of a lot of it dry. 
B.28: Uh-huh. 
A.29: And insurance, is insurance bad there? 
B.30: Um, I've got, uh, two older cars. There both, - one's a seventy-seven and one's a seventy-eight. 
A.31: Well, we've got one eighty-nine. 
B.32: And my insurance is about, it was running about four hundred dollars a year. But when I moved to the new town I live in, - because it's a different county, which has less crime, and, uh, less, you know, less highways and so it's a cheaper place to live, as far as the insurance company's concerned, so my, my, I think my insurance dropped about sixty dollars a year. 
A.33: Wow. That's not bad, four hundred and something a year. That's, that's, -
B.34: It's actually three hundred and forty for each one of the cars. 
A.35: That's cheaper than we pay. 
B.36: Yeah, I was down in Texas for two years, and I was paying unbelievable rates for both car insurance and for home insurance. Um, 
A.37: Well, here in Colorado it's even worse because we have no fault. 
B.38: Yeah. 
A.39: Do you have that there? 
B.40: they have no fault in Maryland also. 
A.41: Well, no fault's rather funny in Colorado, because it seems that <<pause>> everyone pays all the time --
B.42: Yeah. 
A.43: -- instead of just the guilty party pays. 
B.44: Uh-huh. Yeah. 
A.45: <Laughter>.
B.46: It's kind of, it's kind of strange here the way things go. Uh, here if you have an accident and no one's injured, the police won't even show up. 
A.47: You're kidding. 
B.48: Nope. They say if nobody's injured, you all exchange names and take it up with your insurance company. 
A.49: God. 
B.50: Well, if you, - I don't know how familiar you are with Maryland, but, uh, -
A.51: Not at all. 
B.52: especially, the center part of Maryland where I Ninety-Five runs through it is really heavily populated. There's just so many people and so many accidents every single day that it'd take a whole another police force just to answer the traffic. 
A.53: They don't even try to keep up with it. 
B.54: No. 
A.55: God. 
B.56: Not a bit. 
A.57: So you lived in Texas for a while. 
B.58: Yes sir. 
A.59: Huh. 
B.60: I spent, uh, couple of years down there. Moved down there in eighty-seven and moved out in eighty-nine. 
A.61: Are, where you from originally. 
B.62: Uh, right here in Maryland. 
A.63: Huh, so you just basically went home when you had a chance. 
B.64: Yeah, my family, uh, didn't like Texas, and I had a chance to, uh, transfer up. T I bought a company about seven months after I moved to Texas, right here in . 
A.65: That's nice. 
B.66: So I got an opportunity to transfer back, and I took it. 
A.67: God, that's great. Uh, I'm a native Texan. 
B.68: Uh-huh. 
A.69: West Texan. 
B.70: Yeah. 
A.71: There is a difference. 
B.72: Yeah, believe me, I know there is. I lived in Plano, and I don't know if you're familiar with Plano -- 
A.73: Yeah. 
B.74: -- but Plano, maybe five percent of the Plano actually were from Texas. Everybody else was an import. 
A.75: Well, I'm a West Texan. 
B.76: Uh-huh. 
A.77: Lubbock, Midland Odessa --
B.78: Yes. 
A.79: -- Amarillo, Dumas, Panhandle. 
B.80: Yeah. 
A.81: A different world from down there. 
B.82: Yeah. 
A.83: So, uh, Colorado's been fun. But they have a real problem. Next to every window the state seems to have put up a turnstile. And every time you look at a, look at the mountains --
B.84: Yeah. 
A.85: -- or think about looking at the mountains, you got to throw in a dollar. 
B.86: <Laughter>.
A.87: Or so it seems. I may just be paranoid, but that state income tax is just eating me alive. 
B.88: Yeah, yeah, they have a state income tax in Maryland. But I noticed when I was in the, in the, in Texas, they didn't have a state income tax, but they sure nailed you on those darn county taxes and,
A.89: Yeah, yeah. 
B.90: school taxes and property taxes, 
A.91: Property taxes and, -
B.92: Oh my God, ate you alive. 
A.93: Yeah, well, Colorado, ins-, you know they have the state income tax, but then they also have property taxes, and they also have sales taxes, and they just get you every direction they can. 
B.94: Yeah. 
A.95: And I just don't know, sir, but it seems like they trying to get you every which way. 
B.96: Yeah, it sure does. Um, there's, uh, some good books that I've read, um, that you might be interested in. Uh -- 
A.97: Oh yeah? 
B.98: -- Charles D. Gibbons is the guy who runs some ads on light night T V and he's got seminars you can go to, and they try to hook you into his organization, which costs about four hundred bucks. But he's got a couple of books out. One of them is called, uh, WEALTH WITHOUT RISK. 
A.99: I've heard of the book. 
B.100: Yes, it's a very good book. It's tells you how to cut money on your taxes and on your insurance and then --
A.101: Legally? 
B.102: -- what to do with the money that you save. 
A.103: Legally,
B.104: Yes, yes, 
A.105: cut money on your taxes. Huh. 
B.106: legally, legally cut money on your taxes, and on your insurance, and then he tells you how to invest that money in order to, uh, you know, be wealthier. Uh, he also has a new book out that I purchased right before I moved and haven't had a chance to crack it open yet. Um, FINANCIAL SELF DEFENSE is the name of it. Uh, the man, uh, has a lot of good ideas, some of them I already knew about, some of them I had already practiced. But I suggest it to anyone who wants to be better off financially to read it because, uh, -
A.107: And that includes everyone at T I. 
B.108: <Laughter> Yes, I'm one of the ones that had my salary frozen for ninety-one. Yes. 
A.109: Well, even, the, you know, the nonexempts, technically yet we haven't had our salary frozen yet. 
B.110: Yet. 
A.111: But when you're only at living wage it doesn't matter. 
B.112: <Laughter>.
A.113: You know, survival is a funny state. 
B.114: Yeah, I know what you mean. I, uh, when I was in Dallas I was supervisor, and I had four non exempts, um, under me. 
A.115: Yeah. 
B.116: And, uh, I was appalled at what, how they were paying them. I just couldn't believe it. 
A.117: Did, well, I've been with the company for sixteen years now. I was a W F for several years, and it just n-, never seems to improve. It, and it doesn't seem to get much better for the exempts either, unless you're twenty-eight or above. 
B.118: Yeah, yeah. 
A.119: It's really a shame. 
B.120: Well, I, I've, this company that they bought, they ended up buying a very high payroll. 
A.121: Oh. 
B.122: And, uh, the, you know, I thought I was making a good wage, 

A.1: Uh, so, you have children I take it? 
B.2: <noise> <<Sounds like she is cooking, i. e. banging pots, water, etc>> No, I don't. 
A.3: You don't? 
B.4: No, huh-uh. <laughter> 
A.5: So, it's not a very valid topic. 
B.6: No, it's not. Do you have children? 
A.7: Uh, yes. 
B.8: Uh-huh. 
A.9: One. 
B.10: One. 
A.11: Stepdaughter. 
B.12: Uh-huh. 
A.13: Ten. 
B.14: Ten. 
A.15: And, uh, <laughter> you know how they are at that age, I guess.
B.16: <laughter>.
A.17: you having been ten once,
B.18: <laughter>.
A.19: yourself. 
B.20: Yeah. Once upon a time I was. Well, I have two dogs, those are my kids. 
A.21: Oh, we have one. 
B.22: <laughter> What kind is it? 
A.23: A Keeshonden. 
B.24: Oh, really. 
A.25: Yeah, 
B.26: Uh-huh . 
A.27: fuzzy little thing. 
B.28: A what? 
A.29: A fuzzy little dog. 
B.30: Yeah, yeah, they're cute. 
A.31: Rather, rather odd personality, he, he's fun. 
B.32: Uh-huh. 
A.33: Anyway, uh, time we spend with our children. 
B.34: Uh-huh. 
A.35: <<pause>> It seems almost as though children hate it. 
B.36: Do they? 
A.37: <laughter> Yes. 
B.38: <laughter>
A.39: Time spent with Mom and Dad is, <noise> uh, next, is probably one of the worst punishments spent on earth to them. 
B.40: Yeah, especially when they get like into the teenage stage. 
A.41: Yeah. 
B.42: I guess. <<pause>> <laughter> Yeah, I remember when I was that age. 
A.43: They, you know, - parents are a curse that they just have to live with. 
B.44: Uh-huh. <sniffing> 
A.45: <noise> So, it, it's interesting. 
B.46: Yeah. 
A.47: But we do spend time driving in the mountains, and ... -
B.48: Uh-huh. Oh, how nice, I would love to live up there. 
A.49: Well. Do you work for T I? <noise> 
B.50: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
A.51: You're working then? 
B.52: Yeah. 
A.53: With every passing day we wonder if we will be. 
B.54: <laughter> That's what I heard. <noise> <<Sounds like running water>> I've always thought about maybe transferring up there, and I thought if I do that, I might not have a job so <laughter>. <noise> -
A.55: It's, it's better to be employed. 
B.56: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 
A.57: Especially these days where there is not a job right around the corner. 
B.58: Uh-huh. I know it. 
A.59: And that creates family tensions. 
B.60: Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure it does. <sniffing> So, you only have the, you only have the stepdaughter at home? 
A.61: Yes. 
B.62: You all don't have any other children around there? 
A.63: No, no. 
B.64: <laughter>.
A.65: I don't have any, an-, children. 
B.66: Uh-huh. So, how does she feel about going out and doing stuff with you all. 
A.67: <laughter> Uh, well it varies what it is, of course, but usually,
B.68: <sniffing>
A.69: Mom and Dad are a curse. 
B.70: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
A.71: You know, they, they'd much rather be with friends, 
B.72: Oh, yeah . 
A.73: friends are cool, parents aren't. 
B.74: <laughter> No, huh-uh. 
A.75: Well, I remember, - well I'm sure part of it is a male, female thing, you know, 
B.76: Uh-huh. 
A.77: I, I remember whenever I was growing up, often times spent with my Dad was, oh, just wonderful, you know, go, +
B.78: Uh-huh. 
A.79: go hunting, or go to the races,
B.80: Uh-huh. 
A.81: or, or, oh, any number of things. 
B.82: Uh-huh. 
A.83: And we'd have, um, great times, 
B.84: Oh, yeah. 
A.85: and it seems that well now the bank's not available. 
B.86: Yeah. Um. 
A.87: <<pause>> And, entirely too much time is spent, - my wife and I were wondering what if, 
B.88: Uh-huh. 
A.89: <<pause>> and, and what if's always rough. 
B.90: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 
A.91: But, you know, we do have our trips and we do have our fun and,
B.92: Uh-huh. 
A.93: <sigh> I don't know, little girls aren't interested in lot of the same things little boys are or were. 
B.94: <laughter> Like fishing and ... -
A.95: Hunting and, and, ]
B.96: Yeah. 
A.97: Looking for arrowheads, and ... -
B.98: <laughter> My husband will say that he'd like to have a little boy to take hunting and fishing and I said, well, you can take a little girl hunting and fishing just as easily. 
A.99: Uh, but they don't like it. 
B.100: <laughter> That's probably right. <door> 
A.101: There, there, there is a difference there. 
B.102: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 
A.103: And, and ... -
B.104: No, if my Dad had done that when I was a kid I probably wouldn't have liked it. I go now, with my husband. And, I enjoy it, but ... -
A.105: Well, girls at that age,
B.106: Uh-huh. 
A.107: Video games, boys and malls.
B.108: <laughter> Yeah, yeah. 
A.109: Not necessarily in that order,
B.110: <laughter>
A.111: and friends of course. 
B.112: Uh-huh. 
A.113: And, that's a little tough for fathers. 
B.114: Uh-huh. I imagine. 
A.115: Fathers don't even like malls, they despise shopping. 
B.116: <laughter> Uh. 
A.117: So, is that quality time? 
B.118: Huh, no, I think not. 
A.119: Yeah, if, - but there is camping and we both enjoy that. 
B.120: Uh-huh, she likes to do that? 
A.121: Somewhat, yeah, yeah . 
B.122: Yeah , yeah. Well, that's good. 
A.123: Getting up in the mountains and getting away from it all and,
B.124: Uh-huh. 
A.125: that's somewhat fun. 
B.126: Uh-huh. She ... -
A.127: It's , -
B.128: Huh? 
A.129: so what do you think about child rearing? Is, - how, how would you spend time with kids? 
B.130: Probably doing outdoorsie stuff, and keeping, trying to keep them away from the T V, I guess <laughter>. And, McDonald's <laughter>. 
A.131: Oh, yeah. 
B.132: I, I always said that if I had a kid they wouldn't know what McDonald's is. <sniffing> 
A.133: Yeah, but -
B.134: But , they learn from their friends, don't they? 
A.135: Well, yeah, and amazingly a lot of times it's real easy. 
B.136: Uh-huh. 
A.137: You know, a lot of times, whenever we head out of town on a trip or something,
B.138: Uh-huh. 
A.139: it's real easy to swing in there for breakfast. 
B.140: Yeah. 
A.141: Breakfast and run. 
B.142: Yeah. 
A.143: And breakfast is a kind of a funny meal anyway, 
B.144: Yeah. It is. 
A.145: and, uh, kids eat funny. 
B.146: <laughter> This lady in our bass club, - we had a tournament yesterday and she was talking about her daughter, said, one week her daughter will, uh, be on a no meat kick, and one week she'll eat nothing but Twix candy bars, you know, she just eats weird. 
A.147: And little girls are worse about it than little boys. 
B.148: Yeah, yeah. 
A.149: They ... -
B.150: They're always wanting to go on a diet or something. 
A.151: Or, or something, yeah. 
B.152: Uh-huh. 
A.153: Go on a diet or they, they have a, - well, <noise> to some extent the public schools, or the schools in general,
B.154: Uh-huh. 
A.155: influence them, 
B.156: Uh-huh. 
A.157: the eating meat kick. 
B.158: Yeah. 
A.159: You know, like it's really morally wrong to eat meat or something, 
B.160: Uh-huh. 
A.161: I, I'm not sure. 
B.162: <laughter>
A.163: Of course, that's not the way I was raised, being raised in West Texas. 
B.164: Yeah. Oh, is that where you're from? 
A.165: Oh, yeah. 
B.166: Uh-huh. 
A.167: Born in Denton, raised in Lubbock. 
B.168: Oh. Um. 
A.169: So, I understand about bass. 
B.170: Yeah <laughter>. Huh. 
A.171: But it, but it is interesting, 
B.172: Uh-huh. 
A.173: I, I will tell you, yeah. Every person out there should have kids, at least once or, or have some they can borrow for a time,
B.174: <laughter> That's the kind I like. <laughter> 
A.175: because everyone needs some torture in their lives. 
B.176: <laughter> My Mother used to put that curse on my sister. I hope you have kids just like yourself. <laughter> And, my Grandmother must have put that on my Dad because he got my sister, she's just like him. 
A.177: Uh. But, Jenny is a sweet kid. 
B.178: Yeah, I'm sure she is. 
A.179: And, yeah, we do do things, 
B.180: Yeah. 
A.181: and, it, it's funny, it's almost like a lot of things that were available to us as children,
B.182: Uh-huh. 
A.183: to go do, 
B.184: <barking> Uh-huh. 
A.185: The money's not available. 
B.186: <barking> Uh-huh, I know, I don't know how people can afford kids. <throat_clearing> I mean ... -
A.187: You know , we were talking about how much it cost to go to Disney Land. 
B.188: Uh-huh. 
A.189: Golly! A couple, three hundred dollars. 
B.190: Oh, yeah. 
A.191: You know, for just, for just a day, not in-, you know, a day or two, not including lodging and food and all that. 
B.192: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
A.193: It's, - I don't see how anyone can afford it. 
B.194: Uh. 
A.195: And, I understand Six Flags is real expensive now. 
B.196: It's, uh, I heard it's twenty bucks a whack. For adults. 
A.197: Oh, yeah. 
B.198: Yeah. That is awful high. Oh, well ... -
A.199: Twenty bucks a whack now. 
B.200: Yeah, or twenty-one. 
A.201: But, at least once you pay your way in there,
B.202: Yeah, yeah . 
A.203: at Six Flags ... -
B.204: yeah, everything's free except for the food. 
A.205: Yeah, yeah, food and junk to carry out. 
B.206: <laughter>
A.207: <laughter> So that's, that's not as bad. 
B.208: Yeah. Yeah. 
A.209: But, golly! 
B.210: <laughter>
A.211: You know, Disney World or Disney Land. 
B.212: Uh-huh. 
A.213: Well, our problem is that, you know, a trip to Six Flags or Disney World or, uh, Disney Land, or God forbid, Disney World, would take forever. 
B.214: <laughter> Really. 
A.215: Or you'd have to pay air fare, 
B.216: Uh-huh. 
A.217: and, ooh, for a family, you know, for a family it gets pretty expensive pretty quick. 
B.218: OH, yeah. 
A.219: Rent a car when you get there and all that. Yeah. 
B.220: That's why I lucked out, my Dad worked for Braniff when I was a kid so we got, you know, our air fare free and we got ... <noise> -

A.1: So, what kind of neat hobbies do you have? 
B.2: Well, I like gardening a lot, I like to be outside, um. 
A.3: I like gardening, I wish I had a green thumb, though. 
B.4: <Laughter>.
A.5: I've got a brown thumb. That's what everything turns. 
B.6: Oh <laughter>, is, - but, do you tr-, keep trying anyway? 
A.7: I keep trying, uh, you know, you just can't, can't give up on it, uh, I, uh, I bought some, uh, plants from Michigan Bulb Company <laughter> they send them to you all ready alive. 
B.8: No, no, I've never had any luck with their's. 
A.9: Oh really. 
B.10: Right. 
A.11: I guess, I guess these are going to croak too. 
B.12: <Laughter>.
A.13: Since I've got cats, I decided to get some catnip. 
B.14: Oh. 
A.15: Lots and lots of catnip, so it's, it's still green, and it's been two days so I'm encouraged <laughter>. 
B.16: <Laughter> No, I, I haven't had, had good luck with that company, uh, I think some of it depends how long things stay in the mail, probably. 
A.17: Yeah. 
B.18: But, I've had to, to get my money back from them and had better luck with, with some of the, the more expensive companies. 
A.19: Yeah, there's a, uh, -
B.20: Because they, -
A.21: I don't know, do you have Lowe's up there? 
B.22: Uh, well, -
A.23: Its, uh, building, uh, contra-, or building supplies place. 
B.24: No. 
A.25: Um, they, they also have a garden shop and,
B.26: Uh-huh. 
A.27: they, they offer just as good a guarantee, if you buy it from them. 
B.28: Oh, that's great, 
A.29: Yeah. 
B.30: now our local stores don't, don't offer any guarantee. 
A.31: Um. 
B.32: But some of the, - the mail order ones that I've dealt with for roses and that, they offer through, through the first Summer.
A.33: Yeah. 
B.34: Which - at least if they, if they take off the first year, they're probably going to come up unless there's, uh, a terrible freeze or something. 
A.35: Yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that. Uh, I got a whole bunch of bulbs along with this stuff, so, I'm going to wait on those. 
B.36: Oh, they're bulbs for Spring or Fall? 
A.37: Uh, probably Spring, but, uh, I don't much care about things like that. I'll, I'll make a little sort of greenhouse, a miniature greenhouse to put all this stuff in. 
B.38: <Laughter>.
A.39: Something, something, to keep me occupied, you see. 
B.40: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
A.41: I'll, uh, buy some plastic and make a little house and, -
B.42: <Laughter> Cute. 
A.43: yeah, and watch the cats tear it up. 
B.44: Right. I don't know that, do cats bother bulbs? I think more the mice or other rodents. 
A.45: They, they just like to get in and dig. 
B.46: Oh, I see so if you have fresh dirt, they'll <laughter>, -
A.47: Oh, they love to dig. I had, I had some, uh, - I don't know what kind they are, I've already forgotten, - just regular old flower seeds and I planted them and I was so, I was so thrilled because they came up, I mean nice green shoots coming up all over the place. And then my cats got into it and started digging and that took care of that. 
B.48: Uh, gee. 
A.49: So, I have to hang these things high, so they can't get to them. Especially the catnip. 
B.50: How many cats do you have? 
A.51: Three. 
B.52: Oh okay. 
A.53: <Laughter>.
B.54: Actually I just, put a, uh, little fence around my yard, uh, um, which is I suppose, technically illegal, but I had so many groundhogs last year that I think they'll let me get by with it, and it, it's got this one inch mesh and what I've noticed it's kept the cats out and I love it <laughter>. 
A.55: Um, yeah, yeah, because they, they like to get in and fertilize things too. But, uh, why would it be illegal? 
B.56: Well, because we have these tow-, uh, - I live in a townhouse and anyway all of our areas have associations that you have to get permission. 
A.57: Oh, uh, yeah, right. 
B.58: And, you know, they want, uh, privacy fences. 
A.59: Well, if nobody, yeah, if nobody complains you're all right. 
B.60: Right, right. Well they do walking tours too, so. -
A.61: Um. 
B.62: But at least, because I back up to, um, a hillside where the, uh, wild animals are, I think I can probably justify it. 
A.63: Um, yeah, an, and if somebody raises a stink about it you can always go before the association and argue your case anyway. 
B.64: Right, right, I me-, -
A.65: You know, you don't have to put up with all these wild critters coming into your property. 
B.66: <Laughter> Right, the first year, the deer ate my garden, and I was just astounded. I'm going deer, right here in the city <laughter>. 
A.67: Yeah, right here, Bambi <laughter>. 
B.68: <Laughter> Exactly. 
A.69: Uh, gosh. 
B.70: And so, -
A.71: Well, let's see, other than gardening which I fiddle at, I'm not very good at, - what else do I, mostly just computer stuff. 
B.72: Oh. 
A.73: I just like playing with my computer and doing stuff on that. Uh, cooking, that's not really a hobby, it's a necessity. 
B.74: <Laughter>.
A.75: But, but I enjoy it. I like to think that I'm a very good cook. 
B.76: Oh, great. 
A.77: Um, hobbies, that's about it. I don't have much time for hobbies, uh, between being a student and trying to run a business on the side, you don't have a lot of time. 
B.78: Right that keeps you busy. 
A.79: Yeah, and raising cats. 
B.80: <Laughter> I mean that could become a hobby. 
A.81: Well, it's, it started out as a hobby actually. 
B.82: Uh-huh. 
A.83: Uh, it just, it developed into sort of a business, uh, you know, we breed them and all that, but, we didn't, you know, we didn't really start it for the money, it was just, they were fun to have around and we figured if we're going to have them we might as well have some purebreds an. And now it developed in to going to cat shows and finding studs for them, and, you know, all this kind of stuff. 
B.84: Uh-huh. What kind of cats are they? 
A.85: Uh, I've got a, uh, a Bombay, a Turkish Van and a Himalayan Persian. 
B.86: Wow. 
A.87: Yeah, the Himie is probably the sweetest one. She's, she's just a little sweetheart. 
B.88: <Laughter>.
A.89: We, uh, - the, the Bombay had a litter, uh, last October and w-, - I just got her back from the vet this morning, getting her spayed. Only going to breed them once. 
B.90: Oh, okay. 
A.91: And, uh, she's not, she's not feeling too great today. 
B.92: Um, is that typical, to only breed them once? 
A.93: No, uh, m-, most breeders are in it for the money, so they'll bree-, they'll breed them twice a year and I, +
B.94: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
A.95: I just think that it's kind of, I don't know, it's kind of cruel. You know, they just, they just breed these, they breed them before they're ready, uh, and,
B.96: Right. 
A.97: you're never, you're never rea-, - and, and they, they do a lot of inbreeding too, and so you end up with, you know, kind of strange kittens. 
B.98: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
A.99: And I just don't like that. 
B.100: So will, you, uh, breed one of the litter, then next year? 
A.101: We're, we sold all that litter,
B.102: Oh. 
A.103: um, we, - there's not that much call to, for Bombays. 
B.104: Uh-huh. 
A.105: Um, they're, they're registered but they're not, they're not, uh, they're not show cats. 
B.106: Oh, I see. 
A.107: Uh, so all you can do is sell them as pet quality. 
B.108: Uh-huh. 
A.109: Uh, so what you've got is a registered pet. And, not too many people want Bombays. They want things like Himie Persians and Turkish Vans. 
B.110: Uh-huh. 
A.111: Turkish Vans, if you've never seen one, I mean, you wouldn't know that it was a pure bred. It's just, uh, medium size short hair cat. It's got, - he's mostly white with, uh, brown and black patches. 
B.112: Oh. 
A.113: But they have nice personalities and they're very inquisitive. Um, now the Himie, we'll probably breed her a couple of times and we'll, we'll end up keeping one out of each litter and then breeding those. 
B.114: Right. 
A.115: It's just the stud fees are so much, though. It'll cost about three hundred dollars for a stud for her. We, we want to breed her with a champion, so. -
B.116: Right. Now these are long haired? 
A.117: Yeah, the Persian is, 
B.118: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
A.119: and the other two are short hairs. 
B.120: Right. Uh, that's nice. 
A.121: Yeah, she's, uh, she's sweet. Going to have some nice kittens, I hope. 
B.122: Uh-huh <laughter>. 
A.123: She's, uh, she's, - if yo-, if you know what a Himalayan is, generally they look something like, uh, - well they come in a lot of different colors. People don't realize it but they're sort of like, uh, Siamese in a way. They have the, uh, they have the gloves on the paws and they're, they're usually two colored. Uh, but this one is, uh, is she's, pre-, predominantly, uh, black but she has chocolate, uh, paws, chocolate stomach and silver on her hindquarters. 
B.124: Gee. 
A.125: And yeah, she's, she's quite attractive looking. 
B.126: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
A.127: Hope, hope the stud will find her attractive. 
B.128: <Laughter> And that she has kittens that look like her. 
A.129: And, and that she has a whole bunch of kittens. But we have to be careful, uh, you know, we have to get a particular color point, uh, stud. You can't just breed them with anything. We have to get a, uh, we have to get a silver point Himie, so that the silver will be predominate in the kittens. 
B.130: I see. 
A.131: That's, it, that's the fun part, trying to figure out what you've got to breed them with, can't just go out there and say, okay, you guys breed, you know <laughter>. 
B.132: <Laughter> You can't just tell them that anyway, but <laughter>. -
A.133: That's right. 
B.134: Oh dear. Well it really sounds like, uh, uh, a business more than a hobby. 
A.135: Well actually, I mean, it, it is a business in a way, but it, it's a lot of fun as a hobby. Especially when you go to shows and get to see all the different cats. We're, we're about to get another breed, we're go-, we're going to buy a Devon Rex . And I didn't, I don't like Devon Rexes at first. 
B.136: What is it. 
A.137: It's a, well actually it's a mutant. It, it comes from England and, uh, fr-, in the county of Devon. 
B.138: Oh. 
A.139: And it's a mutant cat. And they're, they're pretty expensive, we're going to, we're going to shell out probably about a thousand bucks for one. Um, they're very thin, they're, they're, they're long and lanky and skinny. 
B.140: Um. 
A.141: And they have real short hair. It's curly, as a matter of fact. 
B.142: Huh, interesting. 
A.143: Um, yeah, it, it, it's a strange looking cat. Uh, I didn't like them at first. They've got great big ears, 

A.1: Okay. Well, ho-, how do you feel about, uh, drug testing? 
B.2: Um, personally, I don't have a problem with it, uh, I think, uh, as far as, uh, protecting fellow employees, protecting their reputation of the company and the quality of work that the people do, um, it's justified. On the other hand, um, I do agree that it's, it's a, it's an invasion of privacy as far as a person's involvement outside of work. 
A.3: Yeah. 
B.4: Um, I would never, I would never have a problem with anyone testing me, but I can understand why people would object. So, I guess, uh, I guess, uh, I'm kind of mixed on it,
A.5: Yeah. 
B.6: still at this point. 
A.7: I am too a little bit, I mean, I, I don't want to be around people who are really on drugs and that sort of thing, 
B.8: Uh-huh. 
A.9: and, and, you know, obviously they're probably not going to be doing a good job and so forth, but I don't really like having to do it. It, -
B.10: That's right. 
A.11: And I don't like the idea of it, it's, it's, makes too much of a big brother type of thing. 
B.12: That's absolutely right. It, it, uh, I guess it all comes down to, uh, you know, a, a definition of, uh, how much out, outside activities affect your work and, uh, uh, granted, you know, that, - any, any kind of drug use on, on company property and whatnot,
A.13: Yeah. 
B.14: is, is definitely not acceptable. Uh, uh, I don't think anybody would ever argue that.
A.15: Huh-uh. 
B.16: Or, uh, any, any after affects carrying over into the workday but, um, you know, I don't, I'm not particularly concerned with what people do, um, after they leave for the day especially if I don't, if I don't, uh, see any results of it the next day. 
A.17: Yeah, yeah, I think so too. But, you know, it's one of those things. 
B.18: Well, it, it is, it, you know, - on the other hand you, you've got, uh, you've got the, uh, the possibility of people, oh, - you've got some people could be arrested for, uh, drug use, drug dealings and things like that, and, uh, if their, if their employers name hits the papers and that it's, it's, +
A.19: Yeah. 
B.20: it's a mark against them, the company and, uh, you know, what kind of people work there, what, uh, -
A.21: Plus, I guess, if they are in problem enough to be jailed or something of that nature for any length of time, then the company has lost what they've put into that employee,
B.22: That's right. That's right. 
A.23: and their expertise or whatever. 
B.24: Right. E-, even if it is, you know, a company policy of, uh, immediate termination or whatever, they still have to replace them. 
A.25: Yeah. 
B.26: And, uh, there's, there's a lot involved there. 
A.27: Well, do you think that, um, it should be like we have this sort of random spot testing type of thing or do you think it would be more palatable if we had some sort of regular schedule or would that just allow everybody a chance to get out of it? 
B.28: I think, I think the regular schedule stuff, um, that when you say everybody get out of it, that's a good point, I never really thought of it that way. 
A.29: Well, you know, if, if they have time enough they can,
B.30: Yeah, if they really can, 
A.31: stay off of it. 
B.32: um, I think the big-, the biggest problem I've got is, is forcing it on someone after they've already agreed to the terms of employment. 
A.33: Yeah. 
B.34: Um, as far as the new hires, I, I hired on just early enough that I, I missed it. Um, where the new hires were concerned but, uh, not, nobody, no, I don't think anybody questions that, um, testing someone as a, as a precondition to being hired but, um, for the conditions that, for our employment to change while you're on the job that's, I, I don't know, that, that's where I think that most people get upset. It's, uh, you know, it, it's changing the rules in the middle of the game basically and, uh,
A.35: Yeah. 
B.36: It's just, it, it's a really tough question and it, you know, it, - people have, have really quieted down after everything started but I still think there's a lot of, there's a lot of resentment. 
A.37: I think so too, uh, I know the, the group I was in at the time this all came up they, uh, were quite vocal about it, through electronic mail, boy, they just really,
B.38: Uh-huh. 
A.39: you know <laughter>, let them have it from one end to the other,
B.40: You bet. 
A.41: vehemently but, uh, it has quieted down, but I don't think they probably feel any differently, 
B.42: No, that's right. 
A.43: and some, some of them did quit the company. 
B.44: Yeah, I, I know of some people who did, uh, it was, it was indirectly related, you know, they could always come up with other reasons but it, it had a lot to do with it. Just the, the whole attitude, because it's really, uh, it's just really, - it, it seems so un-, - T I, you know, with the, the whole relaxed atmosphere that we have,
A.45: True. 
B.46: um, to all of a sudden, uh, search for attitudes and whatnot. You know, there's not a lot of pressure to, to vote the right way or anything else around T I. Like there, like there is in some companies or at least, you know, - from what I've heard, -
A.47: Uh-huh. 
B.48: but, uh, - yeah <laughter>. 
A.49: Yeah, I wouldn't like anything of that nature, you know, 
B.50: Uh-huh. No, I, -
A.51: don't tell me what to do, you know. 
B.52: Absolutely not, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, - if you hired me I'll be, you know, - supposedly your grade was a little majority of my views and my qualifications to begin with so, uh, you know, let's, let's stick with that original trust, I guess. 
A.53: Yeah. 
B.54: But, uh, it's, it's still, it, it still remains a tough question and, it's, there's a lot of, you know, the whole, the whole department of defense, uh, reasoning behind the original plan and whatnot. There's a lot of different things that, uh, come into play but that was, - I think everybody, everybody pretty much knows that that was kind of a smoke screen to implement it throughout the whole company. 
A.55: Yeah. Well, I guess too if I thought that this would help really and truly do away with the drug problem, then that would be one thing.
B.56: Uh-huh. 
A.57: But I think it's too minor and too, you know, - in, in the whole scope of things this isn't going to, to have any real affect on,
B.58: I really don't think so. 
A.59: what's going on in the street. 
B.60: Yeah. I really don't because, some people are going to, are, are going to risk it, um, it may prevent, e-, - I, I guess, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, if it, if it, if it does help a few individuals maybe, maybe it's worth it. 
A.61: Yeah. 
B.62: Um, you know, it may prevent somebody who was, was teetering on the edge of experimenting or whatnot but, uh, I don't know if, you know, the, - it's, it's a needs of the few and the needs of the many type situation I don't know if everybody should have to sacrifice quite as much. There, there's still a big question in my mind that, the, the absolute refusal to accept the possibility of, of mistakes on the testing,
A.63: Well, yes. 
B.64: is something that still bothers me. It, it's, -
A.65: That, - yes. I, I think that could be a big problem, you know, I would just be irate if they said it was positive and I knew it wasn't, 
B.66: Uh-huh. 
A.67: you know, that just really rubbed me the wrong way. 
B.68: Uh-huh. Absolutely. And that, - I, I don't know if, uh, I don't know if everybody understands all the implications on that too. E-, even if you, you know, if you take, uh, a, a drug that was presc-, prescribed for you but the, the prescription has run out you still had some left and you happen to take an extra penicillin, - well, penicillin's not on the list but, you know, -
A.69: Yeah. 
B.70: yeah, I, I think you understand what I'm getting at, 
A.71: Yeah. 
B.72: it, it can still show up and it can still flag as a positive and, +
A.73: Right. 
B.74: and those kinds of things obviously that's not the intent, 
A.75: No. 
B.76: and, uh, those are the kinds of things that still can show up. 
A.77: I guess the one that really got me too was that, uh, - let's say your spouse is on a particular drug and you know what that is, 
B.78: Uh-huh. 
A.79: and then you end up with the same problem and you take their leftover medicine, that's not allowed. 
B.80: That's right. 
A.81: You know, that's, that's totally out. 
B.82: That's right. I even had friends when I was going to college who were in, uh, pharmacy school and they could legally, um, provide medicine to their family mens-, frie-, family members and friends certain medicines were, were legal now I, I, I believe, you know, any of the, any of the ones we would, we would be tested for wouldn't be on those lists, 
A.83: Uh-huh. 
B.84: but, uh, um, there were certain things that they could provide without a doctors prescription based on their qualifications and,
A.85: Oh, that's interesting. 
B.86: that can happen. But, uh, -
A.87: Well, I guess we've exhausted that one. 
B.88: Yeah, yeah, I think so <laughter>. 
A.89: <Laughter> enjoyed talking to you. 
B.90: You too. 
A.91: Good-bye. 
B.92: Good-bye. 

A.1: Well, what's your views on it? 
B.2: I think it's, uh, a good idea. Um, I grew up, uh, - my teenage years were spent during the sixties, graduating, uh, high school in sixty-eight. Um, I remember when the Peace Corps movement first came about, and I thought it was a very good idea at the time. I was one of those, uh, Kennedy children, if you know what I mean. 
A.3: Uh-huh. 
B.4: And, uh, right now I see a lot of kids who get out of school, have no idea what they want to do. 
A.5: Yeah. 
B.6: And there's a lot of things out there that we could do, uh, for our own country, 
A.7: Sure. 
B.8: let alone other countries, 
A.9: Sure. 
B.10: and I think that we've got the, the people power to do it, it's just, uh, - we need to channel it and focus it on some things that, that need some fixing up. Um, ]
A.11: Yeah. 
B.12: some examples are this, uh, some of the things, like Jimmy Carter's been involved in, uh, a little program to, you know, fix up housing for people. 
A.13: Uh-huh. 
B.14: And there's a lot of housing, 
A.15: Yeah. 
B.16: a-, I know in the area that I live in, that's run down and beat up, but it could be fixed up and used, 
A.17: Uh-huh. 
B.18: and it's just, you know, sitting there wasting away. 
A.19: Yeah, we're not too far behind <horn>. I graduated in seventy-one, so I'm, I'm same generation. I, I'm, - it's going to be a short conversation because I agree with you. 
B.20: <Laughter>.
A.21: I, I think, uh, <horn> I don't, I don't even think it ought to be, uh, voluntary, I think it ought to be mandatory. Uh, for kids to either, either do military service, or public service, one of the two. Uh, a lot of reasons for that, not, not just because I'm a, I'm a hard ass or anything. 
B.22: Uh-huh. 
A.23: It's just that, like you say, kids are getting out of high school not knowing what in the heck they're going to do, and either the military or public service organization can give them a lot of focus. And, I think that it might stop us some problems later on. I mean, you know y-, these kids will get their, their heads on straight, and, and figure out what they want to do, instead of hanging around street corners selling drugs or something. Uh, it's, I think it would be good for them, uh, it helps mature them a little bit, and helps them understand the world, the way it really is. 
B.24: Yeah, I think a lot of people grow up with, uh, with, uh, preconceived notions li-, what the world's about. 
A.25: Oh, yeah. 
B.26: A lot of it has to do from too much T V, 
A.27: Oh, yeah, yeah. 
B.28: and, uh, you know, it's, there's, there's a heck of a lot of difference between, you know, the intake that you get from T V and, and movies, and what you hear in school, and then what reality is. 
A.29: Uh-huh. 
B.30: Uh, I remember, uh, I've, I've worked since I was, - well, I started delivering papers when I was ten, and I had a real job when I was thirteen, so I've, you know, worked most of my life. But I remember when I got out of high school, all through high school was, - boy, I can't wait to get out of high school, I can't wait to get out of high school. And I wanted to go to college, and I had the grades to go to college, and I got accepted to college, but when I got out of high school, I kind of said, you know, what am I going to do now? 
A.31: Uh-huh. 
B.32: You know, it's - like, you know, when I actually started working full time, and I, I got married shortly after getting out of high school. I, uh, thought I was smart, ran away and got married, 
A.33: <Laughter>.
B.34: and, uh, I remember there was a time, and within the first year of marriage, I said, boy wouldn't I give to get, be back in school,
A.35: Uh-huh. 
B.36: and just have to do homework, and, and go work my part time job. 
A.37: Yeah. 
B.38: Because, life, and the reality of working for a living, and trying to make ends meet, is just so overwhelming to someone,
A.39: Yeah. 
B.40: if they aren't prepared for it. 
A.41: And, and most of them aren't. 
B.42: That's true. 
A.43: I mean, you look, you look at the number of marriages that are occurring right ou-, I mean, even in high school, and, you know, y-, you wonder, where are the parents in all of this. You know, why isn't somebody stepping in and, and sto-, putting a stop to this. Kids in high school are just too young to be married. 
B.44: Yeah. 
A.45: They ha-, they have no idea what the world is like. They don't how tough it is out there to make a living. 
B.46: Yeah, a, -
A.47: Uh, I mean, I was in the same boat when I left high school. I, my parents wanted me to go straight to college and I didn't. You know, I was ready, I was ready, I had wanderlust, I wanted to get out and see some things. So, I joined the Air Force and ended up staying there for thirteen years. 
B.48: Um. 
A.49: Um, but, I had lived in my own little bubble up until that time, and, and after traveling around the world a few times, I realized that, things ain't the way they seem. 
B.50: Yeah. 
A.51: And I, I did a lot of growing up there, uh, 
B.52: Yeah, I think once, once kids get out and see how other people really live,
A.53: Uh-huh. Yeah. 
B.54: and know how bad off some people really are, and how good they've got it,
A.55: That's right <throat_clearing>. 
B.56: and what it takes to have that good life,
A.57: That's right. 
B.58: a-, if you're willing to work for it,
A.59: Uh-huh. 
B.60: then they're probably be more inclined to work for it. 
A.61: Well, you know, it's just like you say, there's so much stuff that needs to be done here in this country, and, uh, you know, if, if you could have a thought of something like, uh, like a, uh, uh, a Peace Corps sort of organization. I mean, this would be so useful, just in, uh, for instance, just helping old folks. 
B.62: Uh-huh, exactly. 
A.63: You know, they, you know they need help, they don't have anybody to depend on, and it would be nice to have somebody come over and cut their yard or paint their house, or do minor repairs, or something like that. Y-, -
B.64: You know, I've, I've s-, I, - my, my parents are in their late sixties now, and, um, so many of the people that live around them are unable to do those things for themselves anymore. 
A.65: Yeah. 
B.66: And, it's, it's really hard on them, and the, you know, the thought that I, I see the, uh, the mall rats, you know, walking around the mall, nothing better to do than just walk around the mall all day long, when they could be doing something to help someone. -
A.67: Uh-huh. Yeah. 
B.68: And, uh, you know, yo-, there's a, uh, a nice warm feeling, I remember getting out of doing things like that when I was younger, 
A.69: Yeah. 
B.70: I mean, I was a Boy Scout and the whole bit and, -
A.71: Yeah, my mom's in the same position, late sixties, and, and it got to the, got to the point where, I mean, me and my brother both were, were gone, and she couldn't maintain the house, without large expenditures of money. 
B.72: Yeah. 
A.73: You know, it finally got to a point where she just had to sell it and move into an apartment. And, uh, I, I'm not, I'm not saying that that wouldn't have happened anyway, but it would have been nice if there had been somebody to come around and take care of the little things. You know, like the, like the yard work and little repairs, and painting and stuff like that. 
B.74: Yeah. I think there'd, there'd be a, you know, a, uh, economic benefit for, you know, everyone concerned,
A.75: Oh yeah, sure. 
B.76: those doing the work, and those receiving the, the, uh, the services. 
A.77: Sure, I mean, I mean, the kids who would be giving the service are going to get a lot more out of it than just money. 
B.78: Yeah. 
A.79: You know, that, - I, I remember when I was a kid, I used to do little, little things for the old folks around the neighborhood, and, uh, I know how it made me feel. <<pause>> You know, you s-, uh, - peop-, people just don't help people anymore. They're, they're out for themselves and, -
B.80: Yeah. I think, uh, President
Bush covered that in his, uh, State of the Union Address this year when he said that, you know, it's time for, you know, the individuals to start thinking about what they can do to help each other out instead of counting on government to do everything. 
A.81: Yeah, well that's, that's the, that's the point we've gotten to, you know. Every time somebody wants something they always turn to the government. And, y-, the government's going to be limited. I, where are they going to get the money? They're going to get it from us. And we can do it a lot more efficiently than the government. 
B.82: Yeah. 
A.83: We don't need to add fourteen layers of bureaucracy to a program. 
B.84: Exactly. 
A.85: Um, the thing that Carter works on, uh, Habitats For Humanity, I was involved in that w-, uh, in Montgomery, before I came up to North Carolina, 
B.86: Uh-huh <throat_clearing>.
A.87: and, uh, it was, it was a pretty neat little program. We'd just go out, and they would buy a plot of land, and contractors and builders, and everybody else would donate their, their time, and, uh, the materials were at cost. And we'd put up houses. And, that was kind, that was kind of neat. I, uh, in a way, I think it's a little bit inefficient, but, but it's better than nothing. 
B.88: Yeah. 
A.89: And, and at least I had the opportunity of seeing two families move into decent housing. Um, course, on the other hand, I can start complaining very loudly about people on public assistance who are quite capable of doing something for themselves, but just won't.
B.90: Yes. 
A.91: Because it's far more advantageous for them to sit there and just draw, uh, welfare money than it is to work. Uh, we did a, uh, a cost comparison in one of my courses, and we took all the benefits that a family, that a, a married couple with two kids would get under welfare, and what they would be making at minimum wage. And they came out four thousand dollars better a year, by taking welfare. 
B.92: Yes. 
A.93: So there's no incentive for them to do anything. <<pause>> Far better for them to sit on their butts and draw the money. 
B.94: Yeah. One of the things they tried to push through in Maryland, and, uh, weren't very successful was that if you were an able-bodied person on welfare,
A.95: You had to do something. 
B.96: you had to do some work. And, -
A.97: Yeah. A-, an-, and that's been tried, that was tried in Alabama too, and it got shot down. 
B.98: Yeah. 
A.99: I d-, and I don't understand the reasoning for it. I really don't. It, it seems perfectly logical that if somebody's going to take public money, then they should return something to the public. I mean, if nothing else, go out along an interstate and pick up garbage. 
B.100: That's exactly what they were trying to get them to do. 
A.101: Yeah. What do they, what do they do in Maryland, do they use highway people or do they use prisoners? 
B.102: Um, both. 
A.103: Yeah. Tha-, that's the way they did it in Alabama, too. 
B.104: Yeah, they use both. 
A.105: U-, usually you'd see these big chain gangs out there, <laughter> picking up trash. 
B.106: Uh, they have a, they have another program in Maryland that's called Adopt
A Highway. 
A.107: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, we have that here in North Carolina. 

A.1: So, do you fish? 
B.2: Oh, yeah. My dad has a lake cabin, and so we go there for the small lake, uh, just outside of the Dallas Fort Worth area. It takes us about three hours to get there. And we go, and we fish, and we catch a bunch of junk <laughter>. Nothing, nothing to talk about for the most part, but it's fun. 
A.3: Uh, from a boat or from shore? 
B.4: From the dock, from shore. 
A.5: Oh, that's nice. Uh, mostly catfish or, -
B.6: Oh, mostly we catch carp. If we're doing good, we catch a catfish or two once in a while. And, you know, we go ahead and eat those. But we've never caught enough to really have what you'd call a fish fry. What we normally do is just, uh, go ahead and clean it up, and then, uh, you know, put it in a bag and freeze it. And, and somebody takes it home and eats it then when there's just a couple people instead of a whole crowd. Usually, there's a pretty good crowd there, so we don't ever catch enough to eat. Carp is usually pretty much fun. Because I've caught up to about an eight pound carp on a little, you know, a little pole with twenty pound test line. And that, that's a pretty good fight. So that's a lot of fun. 
A.7: Yeah. A real light line, real light rig? 
B.8: Yeah. 
A.9: Well, that sounds like fun. 
B.10: They fight hard. 
A.11: Fish in Colorado s-, different than that. 
B.12: Yeah? 
A.13: Mostly trout in the mountains. 
B.14: Yeah, and in the rivers and stuff? 
A.15: Yeah, yeah, mountain streams and rivers. 
B.16: Are they good to eat? 
A.17: Uh, yeah, very. Yeah, very much there, you know. 
B.18: Oh, you mean size wise they're not very big? 
A.19: Um, by and large, no. But, but they're big fun. 
B.20: Yeah. Well, I've been, - is that mostly, uh, fly fishing when you're doing that or, -
A.21: What? 
B.22: Are you fly fishing or are you using a bobber? 
A.23: I, I, I'm a fly fisherman. 
B.24: Yeah. 
A.25: Yeah, I, I cast a ways. I'm not highly proficient, but it's fun. 
B.26: I've never even tried that. My, - if I don't have a reel with a button on it, I tend to get so much backlash, it's not worth the trouble <laughter>. 
A.27: Well, let me explain fly, fly fishing to you then. You're not casting a weight on the end of the line? 
B.28: Uh-huh. 
A.29: You're casting the weight of the line. 
B.30: With the little thing on the end. 
A.31: Yeah, well,
B.32: Yeah, I thought it had a weight. 
A.33: the fly on the end weighs nothing. It weighs less than the line. 
B.34: Oh. 
A.35: So what you do is, you strip off, oh, four, five, six little rolls, coils, of line into your hand. 
B.36: Uh-huh. 
A.37: And you whip the line. 
B.38: Um. 
A.39: As you whip it, over your head,
B.40: Uh-huh. 
A.41: or side to side, you slowly feed out more and more. 
B.42: Um. So you're fishing downstream so it will carry some? 
A.43: Well, no, no. You fish upstream. 
B.44: Oh, you fish upstream? 
A.45: Right. And then you let it carry it downstream. 
B.46: Uh-huh. 
A.47: And then you reel it in, and you do it again. 
B.48: You hope that they think it's a bug and, +
A.49: Yeah, exactly. 
B.50: and eat it. 
A.51: Yeah, exactly. 
B.52: Yeah. 
A.53: Jump at it. Uh, from what I'm seeing and hearing and all, the, the big pattern that's really looking forward for spring is the grub pattern. 
B.54: That's a fish? 
A.55: No, no. It, it looks like a grub. Yeah. 
B.56: Oh, it's a, it's a lure. 
A.57: Okay, whenever you, - yeah, a lure, a fly. 
B.58: I see. 
A.59: Whenever you have a, something that looks like something else -- 
B.60: Uh-huh. 
A.61: -- and it's a fly, you call it a pattern. 
B.62: Oh. 
A.63: All right, uh, you know, there's bumble bee patterns --
B.64: Uh-huh. 
A.65: -- there's <sneezing>, excuse me. Uh, there's bumble patterns, there's mosquito patterns, there's wasp patterns, there's grub patterns. 
B.66: Um. 
A.67: Uh, 
B.68: Did someone just come up with this design, and, and you're going to make one for yourself, 
A.69: Uh, 
B.70: or are you going to buy it? 
A.71: You can buy them. Uh, I've got some. And,
B.72: Uh-huh. 
A.73: They seemed to have been hitting real heavy on it in Fall. 
B.74: Oh, it's just, that, that just happens to be what the fish like this year, huh? 
A.75: Yeah, yeah. 
B.76: Um. 
A.77: You know how that changes, the phase of the moon and, -
B.78: <Laughter> I guess so. We tend to use just bait.
A.79: Yeah. Yeah, I, I, +
B.80: And, a few lures, but bait tends to work the best, just some blood bait. 
A.81: You see, I'm from west Texas. 
B.82: Oh, are you? 
A.83: Yeah. 
B.84: Where are you from? 
A.85: Lubbock. 
B.86: Oh, I'm from Midland. 
A.87: Oh, another west Texan. 
B.88: I went to college at Tech, so. You've been out to Buffalo Gap fishing. 
A.89: Yeah, yeah. 
B.90: Yeah. I've been up there. 
A.91: It, +
B.92: I didn't catch anything, but I've been up there <laughter>. 
A.93: It, it's kind of nice way to get away from everything for the day. 
B.94: Yeah, it's fun. It's lazy. Take a picnic lunch. I used to do that with my dad. Every once in a while we'd go out on a Saturday and just spend the day.
A.95: Yeah. 
B.96: Before it got too hot. 
A.97: Well, there you fish mornings and evenings.
B.98: Yeah. 
A.99: And nights. 
B.100: <Laughter> Yeah, we do most of our fishing at night. 
A.101: Yeah. 
B.102: Just from the heat of it all. That's one advantage you've certainly got on us. 
A.103: It, at times, gets incredibly hot here. 
B.104: It does? I've only been up there once. In the summer. Well, no, I've been up there twice in the summer. But both times it was really pleasant. In fact, it snowed on us in, in, - gosh, when was that? 
A.105: June? 
B.106: We were in Mesa Verde Park, and it was like the end of Ju-. It was just before July fourth. 
A.107: Oh. 
B.108: And it was twenty-eight, twenty-nine degrees. We were out in this silly tent with regular little sleeping bags, not knowing any better <laughter>. And here it went and it froze, and it snowed on us. 
A.109: Yeah. 
B.110: We did not know what to do about it. 
A.111: Fishing is not just, just dragging fish out of the water. It's, it's a total experience, you know, getting out in nature and,
B.112: Yeah. 
A.113: hearing the crickets, and listening to the birds and,
B.114: Uh-huh. 
A.115: seeing the squirrels and,
B.116: Do, +
A.117: camping out, and eating out,
B.118: Yeah. 
A.119: of doors and, -
B.120: Do you have to, do you wear waders when you fish? 
A.121: Uh, I probably ought to. I just freeze. 
B.122: Oh. Goodness, it must be a little bit cold. 
A.123: Yeah, yeah, well, you know,
B.124: That's cold water around there. 
A.125: ankle deep or standing on the bank, and slipping it out there. 
B.126: Um. Do you have any, -
A.127: You know, I always intend to just stand on the bank and just kind of slip it,
B.128: Oh, I see. 
A.129: out there, and you know how it is. The water's kind of, -
B.130: Yeah. And you get, you get a little more carried away with it, and you move a little closer. 
A.131: And then you're in to it just a little bit, and then you splash in and,
B.132: Yeah. 
A.133: the next thing you know, your knees are wet. 
B.134: <Laughter> Do you have any kids that you take fishing? 
A.135: Uh, got a stepdaughter. 
B.136: Uh-huh. 
A.137: She's real sweet. And, uh, at times she enjoys it, at times not. 
B.138: Yeah. 
A.139: A fuzzy little dog. 
B.140: <Laughter> I have a three and a half year old and a one and a half year old. 
A.141: Oh. 
B.142: And the little one, of course, is, could care less. 
A.143: Yeah. 
B.144: The, uh, three and a half year old has just gotten to the point, - we got him a little pole last year, and just put, uh, - his big thing last year was throwing it in the water and reeling it up <laughter>. That was what he considered fishing <laughter>. This year, he's gotten to where he can. We, we were at a friend's, uh, stock pond, we were out at their farm, and, and they had been fishing and let him use the pole while we wal-, we all walked off a healthy hundred yards or so and let him fish. 
A.145: Yeah. 
B.146: And he started trying to cast it. So, he, he was kind of getting there but he's, +
A.147: Yeah, you guys sure want to be out of range. 
B.148: He's at a dangerous point right now <laughter>. He understands the mechanics of pushing the button and throw, but not necessarily the direction it's going to go in. 
A.149: It takes time. 
B.150: Yeah. 
A.151: Yeah. Last year, we had a, oh, just a wonderful trip up to Travers Lake. Oh, it was cold, and rain the whole time. And we still had a good time out,
B.152: Yeah. 
A.153: of the deal. 
B.154: Well, that's good. 
A.155: Uh, and Colorado is a beautiful place to live. 
B.156: Oh, yeah. My husband would like to live there, but I don't know. All of our family is here so, -
A.157: Well, and you've got to have, you've got to work for a living. 
B.158: Well, yeah, but T I is up there, so <laughter> that part of it would probably work out <static> <noise>. 
A.159: What division you all in? 
B.160: I'm sorry, what? 
A.161: What division are you all in? 
B.162: We're both, uh, - I was, uh, military, but he's division three. It goes back and forth. Division, well, maybe division one right now. He's in computers. 
A.163: Oh. 
B.164: So, -
A.165: Well, the only thing up here, 
B.166: And he's in school, 
A.167: is division one. 
B.168: and everything else. I have some friends who work up there. 
A.169: Oh, yeah? 
B.170: Kathy and Kevin Guy. 
A.171: Okay. Yeah. 
B.172: Yeah. And they like to fish. They've been inviting us to come up there in the summer. Her dad has a cabin, and they go fishing, up there. 
A.173: Oh, fishing's, +
B.174: So that would be neat to, 
A.175: fishing is fun up here. It's not, -
B.176: try it some time. 
A.177: It seems like the success ratio, the success rate here is not as good as on some of the better lakes there. But <sigh> it is fun.
B.178: Yeah, 
A.179: You know, 
B.180: long as you have a good time, that's the main point so, -
A.181: The, the experience is, is better up here, I think. 
B.182: Uh-huh. 
A.183: You know, it seems more relaxing, there's <static> more to look at. 
B.184: <Laughter> Definitely more to look at. 
A.185: And, and there's something about listening to water run that's relaxing to the soul <static>. 
B.186: Yeah. 
A.187: You know, if you're, if you're just sitting on a nice hot lake, -
B.188: Yeah. The only thing you've got to watch is when that creek comes up. We camped next to one, one time when we were there a couple of summers ago. And we figured we were up a long way off. And then it rained that night, and we thought, well, wonder how far off we are? And we got up the next day, and that creek that had been fifty or sixty feet from our site of our tent was now about three feet away <laughter>. 
A.189: <Laughter>.
B.190: And it's like, oh, well, maybe we ought to move just a touch. So, that was kind of funny. 
A.191: Yeah, it, it is interesting to watch that water rise all of a sudden. 
B.192: Yeah, I just love the way it looks. I could almost just watch the wa-, - we, in fact, we have gotten out on, on trips before and just stopped and watched it because there was so much, and if you were there. I mean, it was, - one time we were there, and I guess it was late May, so it was really your spring almost,
A.193: Uh-huh. 
B.194: you know, at, even though it was, it was really summer down here. And, and the, I guess the creek, the mountains were really starting to melt, and the creek was just wild, just running. And, and all the white water and noise and the, - it was just beautiful. 
A.195: Yeah. I-, it gets f-, foamy almost. 
B.196: Uh-huh. 
A.197: And you know it's just pure and pristine. 
B.198: Yeah. 
A.199: And the froth and, -

A.1: Well thanks for being home, uh, on the weekend, I, uh, I'm actually working at night and, uh, there very few people that are on the list for calls, uh, on the weekends nights. 
B.2: Uh-huh, yeah, well sometimes I'm home and sometimes I'm not, but if I am it's always fun to talk. 
A.3: Are, are you part of the school system out there? 
B.4: I am, as a matter of fact. I'm at, uh, North Carolina State. 
A.5: Uh, the reason I said that because I've had about, uh, three calls and my daughter had one, too, from different students out of North Carolina. I guess they pass the names amongst your computer students, or whatever. 
B.6: Yeah, I think I was the one who did that actually. 
A.7: Oh is that ri-, - great, great. 
B.8: Yeah, I had a, uh, - I teach a course in Voice I O Systems. 
A.9: Oh, is that right? That's wonderful. 
B.10: So, I know, uh, you know, I know about this project, so I got my students to sign up and, uh, apparently a number of them have been participating. 
A.11: Oh, yeah, I talked to one, we're not on the subject. Of course, I talked to one, I think he had a whole bunch of calls. He had a roommate that had calls and everything. 
B.12: Uh-huh. 
A.13: He had way more, twice as many calls as, as I've made, uh, and I, I'm, - of course, we at T I just hoping it works out that the new products that they come out will, uh, sell like gang books, bu-, busters, really. 
B.14: Yeah. 
A.15: Okay, you first on the subject, wha-, what do you think, about Latin
America? 
B.16: Uh, let's see, the subject is, Latin America. 
A.17: Latin America, yeah. 
B.18: I don't know whether I have any real profound thoughts about that, I actually wa-, was planning a trip to Latin America and I got warned off by some people. They say Peru can't be traveled to and the crime rate in Brazil makes it not a pleasant place to go and so on and so forth. 
A.19: Oh, really. T I had a place, I'm not too sure, I don't think they do anymore, down, - I think it was Campinas, I'm not sure and, uh, I guess we were selling parts to the automotive industry, or whatever. And they had quite a few, uh, locations, not quite a few, several, in Latin America. I think the one in New Mexico is closed and I think the one in, in Brazil is closed, but I, I don't know why that is a problem down there and I guess the crime rate is terrible up here too and, uh, an some people say go to New York, but I don't, I don't have an answer to the crime rate. It's sad. That is a sad situation. I, I'd like to go down to Mexico, you know, and I keep hearing that, you know, the government and, and the crime rates pretty high too, that, that is sad.
B.20: Yeah. 
A.21: Uh, not that we can, uh, sell any great program we have with crime, but, uh. I think, uh, I'm kind of like you, I don't have any strong opinions on it. I guess maybe that's our biggest problem we have with our, our neighbors down there is that we don't have any. We have more, I guess ties, we in the United States have more ties to Europe and everything and we don't really, aren't that close to everyone in South America. I don't really know why though. 
B.22: Yeah, I, I don't understand it either, although I, I think a lot of South
Americans regard the United States as, as bullying. And, uh, that 's certainly from a historical point of view, would be true. 
A.23: Right. 
B.24: <Throat_clearing> I mean certainly we took far more from Mexico than Saddam Hussein ever dreamed of taking, in, in his wildest dreams from his neighbors. 
A.25: Right. Yeah, I know that I saw in a book, - I was reading a Spanish book, uh, - not that I read Spanish, you know, I just, you know, reading some Spanish words and there was a comment in there about the Mexicans don't really want us to say, we're Americans. They would like to say that we're North Americans because they're Americans too, you know, and I guess that's true. We don't think of any one else but oursel-, - I guess, we're kind of, uh, the smart asses in the world, I suppose, uh, or of America anyway. We think of ourselves as the only Americans, when they're Americans, too. 
B.26: Yeah, well I think they're going to have, - that's a tough row for <noise> them to, to hoe because I think most of the world is going to regard, uh, citizens of the United States as Americans and citizens of Mexico as Mexicans. 
A.27: As Mexicans, yes that, that, -
B.28: And they can stand on their heads if they want too, 
A.29: <Laughter>. 
B.30: but I don't think that they're going, they're going to change that, and, +
A.31: No, no, I know. 
B.32: and, and really, I mean North Americans I think are, - when you say that even, I thi-, I mean, I tend to think of Americans and Canadians. I just don't think of Mexicans as being North Americans, although, I guess, strictly speaking they are. 
A.33: Yeah, no, I mean they were saying that of us, that we're the North
Americans and they're Americans, they, they, - we always say we're Americans, and they, they want us to say we're the North Americans. 
B.34: Oh, I see <throat_clearing>. 
A.35: We're not Americans, we're North Americans and they're South Americans, yeah. 
B.36: I don't know. 
A.37: Whatever, I, I don't want to make, - I read it somewhere, though it's not my point, I guess, so <laughter>. -
B.38: Yeah, well it's, it's so interesting, I ju-, I just don't think Mexico's problems are going to be cured by semantics. 
A.39: No, no, they, they were lucky enough to have some oil, what, ten years ago, an, and they, they blew all that, and borrowed enou-, more money than they can pay back now and, uh, uh, so they're not exactly business men. I do think we should deal more with them. I don't, I do have a lot of sympathy in that we're here in Texas, uh, for the language, you know, is very foolish. I'm relativ-, relatively familiar with Texas school system and we should teach Spanish at least in, uh, grammar school, you know four or five grades of it so that we can speak Spanish. I think that helps, when you certainly can speak their language, uh, and there are problems with, you know, the wet back problem, you know, for, everyone knows what we're talking about, whe-, say wet back problem. And then we should somehow, uh, - and I think the governments are working on that, to try to have some, uh, businesses, uh, at the borders of both sides so that you can, you don't have this problem of them trying to come up here an, to, to get the jobs, you know, there, there may be some organized way to do this. 
B.40: Yeah. 
A.41: I, I do feel for them, uh, they are very envious of us, or they wouldn't be coming up here, you know, risking a lot. Not that they're risking their lives, of course, but risking a lot, uh, getting thrown back I guess is all that, uh, happens. 
B.42: Yeah. 
A.43: You probably don't see that. Where, we see it, you know, once a month. I'm sure in San Antonio they see it more often than that. 
B.44: Well I grew up in Los Angeles. 
A.45: Okay, well you see it, saw it out there then, too. 
B.46: And, uh, in fact, I drove a cab when I was a graduate student so I, I knew, uh, the Hispanic part of L A pretty well.
A.47: Uh-huh. 
B.48: And certainly, you know, knew that problem, knew, you know, knew about apartment houses that would have eight or ten or twelve people living in them, sleeping in the same bed in shifts and all that. 
A.49: Yeah. 
B.50: And, uh, it was, it was pretty wild. 
A.51: I think a, a common factor to a lot of problems, both, whether it be crime, if, if you want to jump on that, is mostly, uh, poverty. Uh, and I think a lot of their problems is poverty. If we could, uh, uh, - the problems we have, yo-, kno-, in this country, is, is a lot of it's poverty. Whether it's the people aren't trying hard enough to get out of poverty, I, that's another story, but, uh, uh, it is sad. There, there's so much down in all of South
America, uh, so much potential, you know, we're, - T I, of course is, is really pushing world markets in their products and they're, they're mostly in, in Europe now and, in, in, in the Orient, Japan and Singapore now just announced building a plant in Singapore, uh, they're in Taiwan and Japan and they're, they haven't had, what, that much luck in South America and there's got to be a lot of potential for business down there, for the products certainly that we make and everything. 
B.52: Yeah. 
A.53: And there's got to be trade. I guess that's some of the answer, I guess is business, uh. Uh, and I try to be an optimist and say, well that, that's one way is to help any problem whether it be crime, or certainly poverty obviously is to, is to get some business going between each other. And we need, we need to do more of that, uh, somehow. And encourage more business,
B.54: Yeah. 
A.55: between us. 
B.56: Yeah. 
A.57: They've got to have a lot of resources I would think. An enormous amount of, of well potential that way. A lot of it, of course is hot and jungle and all that, but, uh, there's got to be a lot of potential down there. 
B.58: Yeah, uh, 
A.59: Wha-, what are you taking in school, 
B.60: I'm sorry. 
A.61: I didn't ask you that. What are you taking in school? 
B.62: Well I am actually, -
A.63: Oh, yo-, you're an instructor, 
B.64: Yeah. 
A.65: yeah, you're an instructor, yeah, you said. 
B.66: Yeah, I'm the, I'm the teacher, I give, <laughter> as it were. 
A.67: That's great. Are you teaching Computer Science? Wha-, you said, what were you saying you were teaching there? 
B.68: Yeah, I'm in Computer Science and,
A.69: Great, great. 
B.70: uh, very interested in voice systems and in speech recognition, but of course, this project is really one to collect a data base of, of, uh, of casual speech, uh, in an attempt to get some kind of a model of what speech is like. 
A.71: Right. I, of course, I work at T I and I'm a little puzzled as to why when they get my voice one time, why that isn't enough. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm getting a kick out of the whole program but, uh, there's going to be I guess thousands, I don't know how many thousands, or tens of thousands of these recordings and I wonder how they're going to analyze them. Whether it would be listening to them or analyzing, I gu-, - they've got to be analyzing with a, a voice recorder some how. 
B.72: Yeah, well they record these and then somebody transcribes them so that they, +
A.73: Uh-huh. 
B.74: they have, uh, they have a speech signal and what, and what is said. 
A.75: Right. 
B.76: And they have a, they're able to average it over a number of different occasions because peoples voices change a lot even from morning to evening and that's, uh, a big problem in speech recognition. 
A.77: Oh, yes. I know they change with age, I know mine changes, uh, has changed, uh, - although you, you never found, - your, your voice echoes in your own head which is, makes it different than what it really sounds to other people. 
B.78: Yeah. 
A.79: Uh, I'm sure singers and professional people know that, and you always hear your own voice in recordings and say, my God, that's, that's not, obviously that's not me, you know. 
B.80: Yeah. 
A.81: But, uh, I know your voice in your own head resonates a different way. Uh, go ahead, yo-, you comment on it, yeah, I'm glad that you're in the business. That, - I kno-, - T I -s gotten with their Speak and Spell and everything, - I've told my wife, that one of the reasons they're doing it is because eventually you'll be able to talk to your computer, 
B.82: Right. 
A.83: you wouldn't have to have a keyboard, 
B.84: <Throat_clearing>. 
A.85: you'll be able to just give it commands and I'm sure they have some of that now, and not, not, in computers but a lot of potential, of course for handicapped people, -

B.1: So, uh, what do you think? <Laughter>. 
A.2: I think we're overtaxed to the hilt. 
B.3: Yeah. 
A.4: Yeah, I mean, we're, we're taxed on taxes and, um, uh, most all government entities are just trying to give us a state income tax for those who don't have it that is. I mean we don't have one yet, but eventually they may try to push it through. 
B.5: Oh really. So they have n-, I didn't realize they had no state tax in Texas. 
A.6: No, no state income tax. 
B.7: Oh, that's great, because they don't have it in Florida. In New York they have it. 
A.8: Uh-huh. 
B.9: I mean, you know, like I say, I'm in New York and we have a state tax as well. So that just cuts even more. 
A.10: Yeah, I think what needs to be done is they need to control their spending habits. 
B.11: Right, I, I think that I, I mean, I wouldn't be so upset about the amount of taxes paid if it weren't for the fact that they don't, they don't go to any place. You know, y-, you don't see it going to any place where it belongs. 
A.12: Right. 
B.13: I think if it were to be, uh, if it were to be, um, if it were to be, <whispering> hold, hold on a second please, someone just walked in the ro-,
A.14: Yeah. 
B.15: <Rattling> If, if it were to be spent in the right way I think I wouldn't be so upset about it, but given that it, that it's not spent properly, I think it's a major problem. 
A.16: Well we're really overburdened from federal, state and local,
B.17: Uh-huh <<softly>>. 
A.18: that it takes such a size out of your paycheck that there's not a whole lot you can always do with your paycheck. 
B.19: Well that's certainly true. Well what is it they were just talking about, um, sort of middle income, you know, how, how, middle income people, - what winds up happening is, for instance having kids, you know, they wind up having kids as a deduction and after, - but the deduction is so little for kids that they wind up having to pay more in taxes than it costs to raise a kid for the year or something. 
A.20: Uh-huh. 
B.21: I think tha-, - so they want to, you know try an-, - I think they're trying, I think tha-, I think that most of the politicians understand this. They just don't, they're just not very good at doing what they're supposed to be doing. 
A.22: Well they're kind of put into a trap of being out there to please the special interest groups as well. 
B.23: Right. 
A.24: And, uh, I think the only way that can be changed for us to get a, a better tax revenue that's fairness and all, is for us to limit their terms. 
B.25: Uh-huh. 
A.26: And by doing so, they're not obligated to anybody. 
B.27: I agree, I agree. 
A.28: And, uh, I don't know how we're going to do that right away though, but, what, what in general though that taxes are doing to us is, it's just taking, uh, a bite out of our savings. 
B.29: Right, exactly, and then, and then, uh, I'm, I'm just not sure if I see, you know, if I see it going, like I say to the right places. I mean, it'd be, it'd be one thing if it were taking a bite out of your savings and then you were getting it all back when you got older. 
A.30: Yeah. 
B.31: You know, but I'm not convinced, that's, a-, tha-, that Social Security is doing as well as it should [ and, you know, and, and, and, uh, and, and that, you know, those people who need it for welfare and so forth, who really need it for welfare, not the eighty-five to ninety percent of them who don't need it. But I mean the real people who really need it, you know, should be getting it but instead I think it's going to the wrong places. 
A.32: And I believe the Social Security tax is a great scheme. 
B.33: You think so? 
A.34: Yeah, it's, uh, you know, - right now, they're robbing from it to pad the federal deficit. 
B.35: I know and that scares the hell out of me. 
A.36: Yeah, tha-, that's illegal, see. If, uh, most company, uh, C E O -s were to do that within their private company, they'd be in jail. 
B.37: Yeah <door>. 
A.38: <Laughter> So how are we letting them get away with it. 
B.39: Yeah, I don't, I don't, - well becau-, because they're the ones who make the laws.
A.40: Right. 
B.41: So who's going to yell at them, you know, it'd be nice if we sort of, as one, band together and, and, uh, and, an performed a citizens arrest, I guess.
A.42: Yeah. 
B.43: To see if we could sort of clean them up and you know, but I don't know if we can do that or not. 
A.44: A lot of people have become too complacent and believe everything is just the norm as to the way things are going and feel absolutely helpless to oppose a lot of the situations going on,
B.45: Uh-huh. 
A.46: in the taxing system. 
B.47: I agree, I agree. But, um, yeah, like, like you said, I wonder, you know, if, if it's certainly not going to be a slow change process and I wonder if it'll ever be a change process. 
A.48: Yeah. 
B.49: I sort of, I sort of get discouraged when I think about all the things that I think are wrong <breathing> <laughter>. You know, all those things that really could be changed that aren't, you know, that, that aren't. And tax is one of those things that just sort of sits way up there on the list. 
A.50: Yeah, uh-huh. 
B.51: So, I don't kno-, - I, I, I have no idea what to do about it. 
A.52: Well there's no quick solution, or no sure fire easy answer. It's just going to take, uh, uh, really, uh, uh, uh, a combination effort, I think, of the majority of the American people to come to a decisive answer,
B.53: <Door>. 
A.54: or vote to limit the way it's spent. 
B.55: Yeah. 
A.56: See, we, we're, we have no say so as to where the money goes in the first place. 
B.57: Right. We don't, - I mean, the only say so we have is supposedly by electing people who we think are going to vote one way of another. 
A.58: Right and they are controlled, or pretty much do what they want to do. 
B.59: Right, I've never quite understood that. I've never, uh, you know, even though, um, I, I've never been, uh, sort of politically minded, - but it's never been clear to me as to sort of, um, you know, how Congressmen an, can, can just sort of go ahead and vote their own conscience as their own ideas when clearly their constituency doe-, doesn't back them up on anything, you know. And often times that will happen. 
A.60: Well they feel invu-, invulnerable to, uh, any wrath or,
B.61: Right <clicking>. 
A.62: uh, it's, it's occurred so many times that they figure people will usually forget and don't think about it when the election time arises. 
B.63: Right. 
A.64: And generally it does work out that way. 
B.65: They do forget, it's true, coul-, because everybody, - think of what happens is whenever the politici-, whenever th-, the one who made that supposed mistake turns around - and, uh, his, his or her opponent can say well look, they did this. And they can turn around and say well my opponent did this. 
A.66: Uh-huh. 
B.67: So it becomes, uh, a general battle of the w-, sort of the election of the lesser of two evils, I think, so.
A.68: Yeah. 
B.69: I don't know, I just, uh, I'm unhappy with it but. - And well, I'm, I'm sort of semifortunate right now, I'm a graduate student, so I don't make that much, 
A.70: Uh-huh. 
B.71: and what I make isn't taxed very highly because I'm still in school. 
A.72: Well when you get out into the real world then you'll know. 
B.73: But it's, my, my, my wife has a real job and, you know, when I get her job, um, you know, we, we look at her paycheck, I'm just floored when I see how little of it we're actually allowed to keep.
A.74: Yeah. 
B.75: <Door> Especially around bonus time. 
A.76: Bonus time, you have a bonus? 
B.77: Bonus, she, - no, my, my wife does. 
A.78: Oh. 
B.79: My wi-, - I don-, - no graduate students don't get bonuses. 
A.80: Uh-huh. 
B.81: We're lucky to get paychecks the way I figure. 
A.82: So you're taxed on the bonuses too, right. 
B.83: My, my wife is taxed on her bonus as well, and that's a, that's usually a big chunk of her bonus check actually. 
A.84: Uh-huh. 
B.85: I mean her bonus isn't that much, but they tax it as, - I, I guess they tax it as if that were her weekly check or something. 
A.86: Uh-huh. 
B.87: So she gets destroyed on her bonus check. 
A.88: Uh-huh. 
B.89: So, she works with in, in, in sales. So a good portion of her, you know, her salary is, is quarterly bonuses. 
A.90: Uh, sales is lucrative but then you're paying really high taxes when you're doing a lucrative job. 
B.91: Yes, well, yeah, she's not entirely sales, so it isn't, it isn't as lucrative as one would hope, but, it, it keeps us supported temporarily,
A.92: Uh-huh. 
B.93: until I can get a real salary and then get taxed more. So, I don't know, I d-, I guess, I guess at this point in time we're just sort of going to have to live with it, <breathing> and hope that it gets better <door>. 
A.94: Yeah. Well, I have, I guess about said what a-, all I can think of to say. 
B.95: Same here, tough topic so. -
A.96: Yeah, it's re-, a rather touchy topic at that, but <laughter>. -
B.97: I beli-, - I, I, I do agree with you, most, most wholeheartedly. 
A.98: Well that's great. 
B.99: It's been a pleasure talking with you. 
A.100: You too, and, uh, -
B.101: Thanks for call. 
A.102: have a good day. 
B.103: You too. Bye-bye. 

A.1: Okay <laughter>. <breathing> I'll let you go ahead <laughter>. 
B.2: Okay. I, uh, I have five children all together. 
A.3: Oh, uh-huh. 
B.4: Uh, my oldest two are already out and about in the world and I, uh, have a set of twins that are fourteen -- 
A.5: Oh. 
B.6: -- and, uh, my youngest is twelve. 
A.7: That's great. I always thought it'd be great to have twins. 
B.8: Uh, yeah. If you like doing everything twice <breathing>. 
A.9: Well, yeah <laughter>. 
B.10: Uh, at any rate, um, my first two children, uh, I didn't spend a whole lot of time with them. 
A.11: Uh-huh. 
B.12: Um, <smack> and, you know, was a, a problem with having five children needing to work a, uh, a full-time job that,
A.13: Uh-huh. 
B.14: was more than a full-time job. I,
A.15: Uh-huh. 
B.16: worked about fifty-one hours a week, because I worked every, <breathing> worked eleven hours every Sunday. 
A.17: Uh-huh. 
B.18: And, uh, so I didn't get to spend as much time with them as I, as I should have, as I really wanted to. 
A.19: Your first ones you mean, it,
B.20: Yeah. The, +
A.21: was this way? 
B.22: yeah, the f-, - well, it was with all of them, 
A.23: Uh-huh. 
B.24: but it was, uh, more an impact, I think, on the oldest two. 
A.25: Uh-huh. 
B.26: Because, um, <noise> oh, about the time I got out of working that long hours was when the, uh, <noise> when the twins were about three years old. And, uh, they never, you know, I don't think they noticed I wasn't around that much. 
A.27: Oh. 
B.28: You know, with all the children around the house, it's,
A.29: Right. 
B.30: kind of hard to notice that Dad isn't around,
A.31: <Laughter>.
B.32: very much. <noise> Um, <smack> so, what I've tried to do, uh, now that I've, uh, fi-, - went back to school and got my degree when I was thirty years old. 
A.33: Uh-huh. 
B.34: And, uh, so, then I came out and was making as much money forty hours a week as I did fifty-one hours,
A.35: Uh-huh. 
B.36: a week. So, I've tried to spend more time with, uh, the children since then. 
A.37: Uh-huh. 
B.38: Um, what I'm currently doing is, uh, taking a lot of time. I'm helping the kids more with their homework in the evenings. Um, we just started a thing where every other week we go to, uh, movies. There's a movie theater that offers dollar movies on Wednesday nights. 
A.39: Uh-huh. 
B.40: And so, every couple of weeks we will go to the movies because that's how often they change the,
A.41: Uh-huh. 
B.42: movies. And, it's working out pretty well. Um, we're spending more time together. I feel like I'm a lot closer to the three that are still living at home than I ever was to the two that were living there before. 
A.43: Uh-huh. 
B.44: Um, in fact, I found that I'm a lot closer with, uh, - I have one son who's gone and I don't even know where he's at. 
A.45: Huh. 
B.46: Um, he's taken off for parts unknown, 
A.47: That's difficult. 
B.48: but, uh, yeah. 
A.49: Yeah. 
B.50: A-, and, uh, my daughter is, um, <smack> has moved out of the house. Her and I get along a lot better now that she's moved <laughter> out of the house <laughter>. 
A.51: Uh-huh <laughter>. It happens that way <laughter>. 
B.52: And uh, so it's, it's, it's, it's been difficult to try to find the time, and I think it's important that we do, because, uh, <smack> I notice that, uh, when I had spent two years down in Dallas, down there they all have a, uh, a me kind of attitude. 
A.53: Uh-huh. 
B.54: And I noticed parents not spending time with their,
A.55: Uh-huh. 
B.56: children and, and going out and doing things. And, you know, I knew like the kids next door were all into cocaine and,
A.57: Um, uh-huh. 
B.58: you know, it just, you know, - I saw the family falling apart down,
A.59: Texas is,
B.60: there. 
A.61: much worst for the drugs. I mean, it was bad enough every place else, but drugs is, in Texas, are extremely bad. 
B.62: <Smack> Yeah. And so, I think it's kind of important that I, that I, you know, nurture the relationship I have with my children now. 
A.63: Uh-huh. 
B.64: And I'm doing my best --
A.65: Uh-huh. 
B.66: -- to keep that up. 
A.67: Well, that's all you can do. 
B.68: Yeah. What's your, been your experience? 
A.69: Well, I, I was going to ask, too, does your wife work? 
B.70: Um, she didn't up until the last, oh, six months. 
A.71: Uh-huh. 
B.72: Um. A.73: She just recently started working then. 
B.74: <Smack> She just recently,
A.75: Uh-huh. 
B.76: started working. Uh, she worked a job until we moved to our new house and, uh, she quit that job because it was too inconvenient. And,
A.77: Uh-huh. 
B.78: uh, she starts a new job tomorrow, which should take her out of the house about four days a week. 
A.79: Oh, uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, that sounds great. <smack> Well, uh, <smack> we also have five children. 
B.80: Huh. 
A.81: And, but ours are all out of the nest <laughter>. 
B.82: <Laughter>.
A.83: So, uh, as, when they were growing up, I, probably we had a lot of similar things l-, like you had, you know, having the time. When you have younger ones to take care of, you maybe sometimes do not take as much time for the older ones. 
B.84: Yeah. 
A.85: But, uh, we were, we're very active, of course, at church, and, uh, Boy Scouting, and Girl Scouts, Four H, uh, and those activities helped a lot in,
B.86: Uh-huh. 
A.87: giving us things to do with the children. And uh, we try to take a vacation with them every year, camping of some sort, something that wasn't expensive. And, uh, our youngest is, uh, expecting her first baby. So, they're, they're all out and on their own. <noise> They're, - and we have one to get married yet <laughter>. And they'll all be married. Uh, and they're, they're all doing pretty good. They, uh, - T lives in Pittsburgh, you probably don't know where that is. 
B.88: Certainly do. 
A.89: Okay. Two of our children live there. Uh, one, I, like I said, lives near Maryl-, in, in around Maryland, D C. He works right on the border of D C. 
B.90: Uh-huh. 
A.91: And one lives in Connecticut <<tape skips on Speaker A's section>> and our baby lives just a mile over the hill <laughter>, 
B.92: <Laughter>.
A.93: so, we'll get to see her a little more than, uh, what we do the other ones. 
B.94: Yeah. That sounds great. I've, I've noticed, uh, another thing, um, <smack> when I was younger my father was always working. 
A.95: Uh-huh. Well,
B.96: And, -
A.97: they have to. 
B.98: Yeah. 
A.99: Yeah. 
B.100: And, uh, you know, he, uh, he worked a full-time job and a part-time job, 
A.101: Uh-huh. 
B.102: and I never saw him. 
A.103: Uh-huh. 
B.104: So, I didn't have much of a role model to go by.
A.105: To go, to follow. 
B.106: You,
A.107: Uh-huh. 
B.108: know, to learn how to be a, a father and,
A.109: Uh-huh. 
B.110: a parent, and that kind of thing, because,
A.111: Yeah. 
B.112: I, I can't ever remember playing ball with my dad or,
A.113: Uh-huh. 
B.114: catch with my dad, or doing anything with my dad. 
A.115: And that does make a big difference. 
B.116: Yeah. And it, - if you don't have, - I don't, I, - it's my feeling that if you don't have a role model to follow --
A.117: Uh-huh. 
B.118: -- then it's kind of tough. 
A.119: Uh-huh. 
B.120: You know, everybody's not FATHER KNOWS BEST. 
A.121: Uh-huh. 
B.122: Yeah, 
A.123: That's, +
B.124: but, -
A.125: that's, - well none of us are. Let's face it,
B.126: Yeah. 
A.127: you know, we're not none of us like they pro-, portray it on those shows. I mean,
B.128: Yeah. 
A.129: life's much more difficult than that. 
B.130: Yeah. I,
A.131: And, uh, -
B.132: mean, the, the, the capability to, uh, create children doesn't necessarily mean you have the, uh, the mental capacity to raise them <laughter>. 
A.133: Right. Right. 
B.134: And, -
A.135: Now, our daughter, our, - well, she's our second oldest, she has, she's the only that, other one that has children. She has two boys. And, she works full time and I have mixed feelings about that. She's able to do that and I don't know if she'd be happy to stay at home. But, yet, on the other hand, I, I've got the mixed feelings that I think you should be at home with your children. I'm kind of old fashioned, I guess, that way. 
B.136: Yes. 
A.137: But they seem to, they seem to give, uh, quality time to those children when they are together. And, and so, it seems, <noise> it seems for them that it works out all right. So, I don't know. I, I don't think I ever would have had what it would take to work full time and raise a family. So ,
B.138: Yes. 
A.139: I , -
B.140: It's, it's not easy. 
A.141: Yeah. 
B.142: I've, uh, you know, I've helped out extremely, uh, - well, I can't say <noise> that, but I've helped out <laughter>,
A.143: Uh-huh. 
B.144: as best I could at home. 
A.145: Uh-huh. 
B.146: And, uh, y-, as you know, with five children it takes a lot of work. 
A.147: Yes. It does, 
B.148: Even,
A.149: it, it, - yeah. 
B.150: if, even if someone's home all the time, there's still a lot of things that have to be done. 
A.151: Yeah. What line of work are you in now since you went to school and, -
B.152: Uh, well, now I work for Texas Instruments. 
A.153: Oh,
B.154: So, +
A.155: okay. 
B.156: so, I'm in computers. 
A.157: Okay. A lot of the people I've, that's call-, I've talked to work for, uh, for the same. 
B.158: Yeah. 
A.159: Uh. 
B.160: And so, I've, uh, - prior to that I, uh, I worked in a food store. 
A.161: Uh-huh. 
B.162: And, uh, you know, wor-, -
A.163: Which your income would be a lot better,
B.164: Uh,
A.165: now. 
B.166: right. 
A.167: Yeah. 
B.168: Yeah. It, uh, it was, uh, it was a, a smart move to make. 
A.169: Uh-huh. 
B.170: Um,
A.171: Uh-huh. 
B.172: I was more intelligent than the position I was holding. 
A.173: Right. 
B.174: And, uh,
A.175: And it's,
B.176: it was, -
A.177: kind of a waste of a person.
B.178: <Breathing> Yes. I, I, ]
A.179: You know. 
B.180: felt that it certainly was, I mean,
A.181: Uh-huh. 
B.182: I was smarter than most of the people that I was working for. 
A.183: Uh-huh. 
B.184: And, uh, you know, every time something new came up, I was explaining it to them. 
A.185: Uh-huh. 
B.186: And,
A.187: Uh-huh. 
B.188: uh, I,
A.189: And you, +
B.190: had, -
A.191: you recognized this and,
B.192: No <breathing>. 
A.193: was able to, you know,
B.194: Yeah. I, uh, -
A.195: do something about it. 
B.196: <Smack> Yeah. I, uh, started back to school. In fact, I was going to school while I was working fifty-one hours a week and that's why I, you know -- -
A.197: Uh-huh. 
B.198: -- if you're working, if you're taking twelve credits at night and you're working fifty-one hours a week, there's not much time left to spend with, -
A.199: Well, it puts a strain on everybody, your wife and your family. 
B.200: Yeah <breathing>. 
A.201: And, the only thing you can remember is to <laughter> <<tape skips>> try and stay together as much as you can,
B.202: <Laughter>.
A.203: because it's very easy to, uh, become, go your own direction --
B.204: Yeah <breathing>. 
A.205: -- when you're s-, when you're working so hard and going to school, too. 
B.206: Yeah. Well, it, it all paid off. 
A.207: Well, that's wonderful. 
B.208: So, uh, you know, I got my degree and got the better paying job, and --
A.209: Uh-huh . 
B.210: -- and, uh, you know, we, I think as a family we're a lot better off. 
A.211: Uh-huh. It sounds to me like, uh, you're doing well. My husband's retired, so, uh, he's been retired for three years now. 
B.212: Uh-huh. 
A.213: Yeah. That's quite a change. 
B.214: <Breathing> Yeah, well, my goal is to try to retire by the time I'm fifty-five. 
A.215: Oh, well, he made it at fifty <laughter>. 
B.216: Great. 
A.217: <breathing> It was a magic number for him and, and, uh, he went at fifty, and he still works part time at other thing, you know, same job as he was doing, only he's retired and doing it independently. 
B.218: Uh-huh. 
A.219: But, uh, nevertheless retired. 
B.220: Well, I'm <<fade out>>. -

B.1: So eating out. What are you interested in in restaurants? 
A.2: Right, uh. We eat out quite a bit, it's just my husband and I at home now. So. -
B.3: Uh, once a week, twice a week? 
A.4: Oh, at least once a week. We're, we're retired now. When we working out we ate out more than that <laughter>. 
B.5: Yeah, I understand. 
A.6: Uh.
B.7: Uh, but we both work and we have a daughter, and we normally manage to eat out once a week anyway. 
A.8: Uh-huh. Well, what type of restaurant do you like, Richard? 
B.9: Uh, really, I'm kind of open on food. I'm what you might call a culinary adventurer. I'll,
A.10: <Laughter>.
B.11: uh, try anything once. 
A.12: Right. 
B.13: Been on a real barbecue kick lately. 
A.14: Oh have you? 
B.15: Yeah. 
A.16: We like Chinese. We eat,
B.17: <Cough>.
A.18: a lot of Chinese food. 
B.19: Excuse me. Uh, yeah, we usually have Chinese once a month. 
A.20: What do you look for in a restaurant? 
B.21: I hate franchised restaurants. 
A.22: You what? You, -
B.23: I despise --
A.24: Oh I, -
B.25: -- franchised restaurants. I, I, I always prefer to go to something that seems more family run.
A.26: Right. 
B.27: Uh, some place where you seem to have the attitude like you're going into their home for dinner almost. 
A.28: I know what you mean. I like some ambiance, and I like good food. I don't like fast food hamburgers <laughter> and all of that. 
B.29: I don't, but I don't like something fake or put on either. 
A.30: Uh-huh. 
B.31: You know, if I could have a good small restaurant or a good large restaurant I'd go to the good small restaurant. 
A.32: Uh-huh. 
B.33: And <breathing> I don't know why that is. I think it's probably due to pricing, often. 
A.34: Right, uh-huh. I don't care to go to a place just for the price of it <laughter>. 
B.35: Well, yeah, yeah, 
A.36: I mean, it's like continental French restaurant or something really --
B.37: Yeah. 
A.38: -- with high prices and seven courses isn't what I usually look for <laughter>. 
B.39: It is what you look for? 
A.40: It isn't, no that isn't what I look for. 
B.41: Oh, isn't, isn't. Uh, I try to get my money's worth. 
A.42: Right <laughter>. 
B.43: And not just that, I try to, well, that's a big part of it. I try to get my money's worth.
A.44: Uh-huh. 
B.45: You know, and not just in quantity, you know, but quality, and, and flavor and texture and care. 
A.46: Presentation and, -
B.47: Well, presentation's not always all of it either. 
A.48: Well, like --
B.49: It's, it's important. 
A.50: -- we, we've been eating some in a restaurant that <throat_clearing> that just changed hands recently, and we're trying to give them a little patronage. But Sunday we went there, and I had a pretty good meal of grilled pork chops and a baked apple and potatoes. 
B.51: Uh-huh. 
A.52: So I said if they would just add a little bit of cranberry sauce, something like that <laughter>. -
B.53: Yeah, yeah, something a little extra --
A.54: Yeah, that's what I mean by, -
B.55: -- and just for color if nothing else. 
A.56: Right, uh-huh. It would mean a lot to the looks of the plate. 
B.57: Yeah, yeah. What I miss up here is, - I'm originally a Texan, and I miss home cooked Mexican. 
A.58: Tex-Mex, Tex-Mex. 
B.59: Yeah, home cooked Tex-Mex. 
A.60: <Laughter>.
B.61: Uh, Mexican restaurants where it's not owned by an Anglo or a corporation. 
A.62: Right, I know. Uh, we have a daughter in Texas and one in New Mexico, and we've really gotten to like, we like the real Mexican food --
B.63: Yeah. 
A.64: -- better than Tex-Mex. 
B.65: Well, there's real Mexican food and there's real Tex-Mex Mexican, you know, by third or fourth generation Americans --
A.66: Right. 
B.67: -- of Hispanic heritage. 
A.68: It's all pretty good, isn't it? 
B.69: Oh, yes, and, and there's big differences, of course, and, of course, when you talk about Mexican cuisine you, that's kind of like talking about American food or Chinese food, <noise> <<dishes in background>> because <<pause>> its regional, too. 
A.70: Right, uh-huh, that's true. 
B.71: So. -
A.72: I'm originally from Maine, so we like seafood, too. And that's something we don't get here, and we're in the mountains in Virginia. 
B.73: Oh. 
A.74: And most of the seafood's frozen. 
B.75: Uh, yeah that's the way it is here in Colorado, also. No fresh, or almost no fresh seafood -- 
A.76: Right. 
B.77: -- and in Texas we got it from the Gulf. 
A.78: Uh-huh, that's true. Lots of shrimp. 
B.79: And, yeah, here a couple years ago my wife and I went to Seattle on vacation. <<pause>> And I think everything except breakfast was seafood for almost a week. 
A.80: I know it <laughter>. 
B.81: And it was, <<pause>> I was like a man starving at every meal. 
A.82: <Laughter> I know the feeling. We do the same thing. My son-in-law is a Texan, and when he goes to Maine, he eats lobster, I guess, at least twice a day, all the time he's up there <laughter>. 
B.83: It's a lot cheaper there, isn't it? Lobster? 
A.84: Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like --
B.85: It's like shrimp on the Gulf. 
A.86: -- two ninety-eight a pound for a pound lobster. 
B.87: Two ninety-eight a pound. 
A.88: Yeah. 
B.89: That's as cheap as steaks some places --
A.90: Oh yeah, cheaper, right. 
B.91: -- I mean in a grocery store. 
A.92: Right, yeah. A lot of the restaurants you can get two pou-, two one pound lobsters for like ten ninety-nine. 
B.93: Oh, my gosh. I've got to go to Maine then <noise> <<dishes rattling in background>>. 
A.94: <Laughter>.
B.95: You may have sold a trip for some time. 
A.96: Yeah, it's a good place to go. 
B.97: Uh, it sounds wonderful. Uh, so, -
A.98: Lots of little restaurants, too, with home cooked food, that's up there. 
B.99: That sound good. Uh, down in the Gulf I've eaten a bunch of those little <<pause>> uh, seafood shacks, we've called them. 
A.100: Right, uh-huh. 
B.101: And, uh, it's just so much different than to eat something that's been frozen.
A.102: Uh-huh. 
B.103: You know <<pause>> --
A.104: We went to Gal-, +
B.105: -- shrimp straight out of the bay. 
A.106: We were in Galveston last year aft-, right aft-, well, the first of this year, actually.
B.107: Hm. 
A.108: And, ate in a restaurant, and they claimed to have the best shrimp on the Gulf coast. 
B.109: Was it true? 
A.110: No. It wasn't. On the way across Louisiana, we pulled off, we saw a billboard and just pulled off taking a chance on a place. And they had, - it was a small restaurant, just kind of out of the way, and they were set up with two buffets, one for their regular Sunday chicken and roast beef and vegetables and everything.
B.111: Hm. 
A.112: And then one complete seafood buffet. 
B.113: Huh. 
A.114: <Laughter> That was the best shrimp I have ever had in my life. They had shrimp fixed probably six different ways. 
B.115: Uh, yes, the cajuns. 
A.116: Uh-huh, right. It was wonderful. 
B.117: They can, they can do things to shrimp that, that no one else can. 
A.118: Uh-huh. 
B.119: So, have you eaten crawfish yet? 
A.120: Uh, I tried it, but I didn't care for it. Not there, but at my brothers I tried it. 
B.121: Oh, as with anything, it's preparation. 
A.122: That's probably true. It, I wasn't hungry, it wasn't a meal. We just, he went down and bought some at a --
B.123: Uh. 
A.124: -- local place that steams them, just so we'd try them. 
B.125: Uh-huh. It, - there's all kinds, 
A.126: Probably needed some cold beer with it and <laughter>, -
B.127: <Laughter> So you do eat out a lot. 
A.128: Quite a bit. 
B.129: One of our other real problems with going out to eat, Sunday morning brunches. 
A.130: Oh. 
B.131: You know, Sunday brunch, all, all you can eat brunches. 
A.132: Right. We used to do that, once in a while, but we don't anymore. 
B.133: Uh, we still find it fun. 
A.134: Uh-huh. It's fun, but it's just so much food <laughter>. Hate to come away feeling uncomfortable <laughter>. 
B.135: Well, I work in machine shop and do a lot of physical labor. 
A.136: Do you, well that makes a difference. 
B.137: And so, -
A.138: Where do you go to brunches? Like at hotels, or restaurants there? 
B.139: Yeah, uh, actually one of our, one of our favorites is a chain. Shoney's. 
A.140: Oh, yeah, uh-huh. We eat at Shoney's. 
B.141: Yeah, <noise> <<dishes rattling>> in spite of the fact I've spoken so badly about chains, chain restaurants, uh, we, uh, do like Shoney's pretty well, but then there's a place up the pass, up in the mountains that we pretty reliably like to go to on some Sunday mornings, drive, drive up to, I think it's about eight thousand foot elevation.
A.142: Oh. 
B.143: And, and drive through Woodland Park and go for a short drive in the mountains and have breakfast. 
A.144: Uh-huh, that sounds nice. 
B.145: It, it, it's the way to spend a nice Sunday morning. 
A.146: Right, I imagine it is. 
B.147: I think it's as much the, the trip to the mountains as it is the breakfast brunch. You know, and it's not that far. It's thirty miles. 
A.148: Whe-, - out of, which direction? 
B.149: Colorado Springs. 
A.150: Out of, which direction from there? 
B.151: West -- 
A.152: Uh-huh. 
B.153: -- west out of Colorado Springs. 

B.1: There you go. 
A.2: Uh-huh. 
B.3: Well, Jean, the subject is jury trials and should the jury recommend, uh, sentencing. 
A.4: Uh-huh. 
B.5: Now my personal opinion, - I don't know. Uh, uh, here lately it seems, - well up until a few years ago, I guess, there just too many liberals about and permitting too many, - oh, they just broaden the human rights to, to cover just about ev-, everybody, and I don't think those guilty of committing capital crimes should be permitted to go spend a few years in jail and be turned lose on parole. 
A.6: Uh-huh. 
B.7: It's just not right. 
A.8: I think I agree with that very much. 
B.9: And therefore --
A.10: I, - do you, -
B.11: -- I think juries should be able to recommend sentencing. 
A.12: Do you think a lot of people, when they are listening to a trial, put themselves in a position like that and say, I would never do something like that, and it's for them to believe that somebody else could do the things that have been done? 
B.13: Yes, very possibly. So many of us have led sheltered lives --
A.14: Uh-huh. 
B.15: -- that, uh, when we go into a, sit in on, a jury, - I've never done it myself --
A.16: I never have either. 
B.17: -- unfortunately, I wish I could have. 
A.18: Is there a reason why you have never, -
B.19: I've just never been called up. 
A.20: Uh-huh. My husband works as a police man, so I always assumed that that was why I was never called. 
B.21: Well now, that's possible. 
A.22: Uh-huh. 
B.23: But, uh, I was called up as an alternate once, but I --
A.24: Uh-huh. 
B.25: -- never made it to the jury. 
A.26: Uh-huh. Uh, do they have such a thing now as a six man jury? 
B.27: Not that I know of. 
A.28: Somebody told me the other day that there is, what they call a six man jury, and I had never heard of such thing, and I wondered if it was true. 
B.29: Uh-huh <<pause>>. Uh, I've never heard of it. 
A.30: I never had either, but I just wondered. Uh, another question was, should a criminal case, should the jury be unanimous on their decision, and that I wasn't sure on either, whether it should be unanimous or not. 
B.31: <Throat_clearing> <cough> Uh, well, there again, uh, I suppose it should be. 
A.32: That would mean they all would have to decide --
B.33: Exactly. 
A.34: -- one way or the other. 
B.35: Is it guilt or innocence. But then again, so many times you get one or two holdouts, and, and --
A.36: Uh-huh. 
B.37: -- it permits the criminal to get a retrial. 
A.38: Yeah, yeah. 
B.39: And there, - that's not too bad in this sense, because you might get someone in their that's a victim of circumstances -- 
A.40: Uh-huh. 
B.41: -- I mean, that's happened -- 
A.42: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.43: -- and giving them another trial might give them additional time to, uh, prove their innocence. 
A.44: Bring some of these things out. 
B.45: Yes. 
A.46: Uh-huh. 
B.47: We can't overlook the fact that there are innocent people that do get involved in jury trials. 
A.48: Un, apparently there are. I, I, I, - since my husband worked as a policeman, I can't believe there are very many people that come to trial that have, are not guilty of something --
B.49: Uh-huh. 
A.50: -- some part of whatever they're accused of. 
B.51: Uh-huh. 
A.52: I have, I still have a little bit of a problem with that. Uh, but, I would suppose there are circumstances, you're in the wrong place at the right time, or know the wrong person at the right time. 
B.53: Oh, that's it, and you just might resemble somebody. 
A.54: Uh-huh. 
B.55: Uh, out here in Texas we had a, a, a, great miscarriage of justice. It was finally, after nine years, it was finally, uh, taken care of. 
A.56: Uh-huh. 
B.57: We had, - a Black man was accused simply because he resembled --
A.58: Oh.
B.59: -- uh, someone who stuc-, who held up, a, Seven Eleven, I think it was. 
A.60: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.61: And even though he had witnesses that said that, uh, he was at work, and he had all sorts of character witnesses and what not,
A.62: They still found him guilty? 
B.63: They found him guilty. 
A.64: When people said he was at work? 
B.65: Well, they said it w-, - this, this happened during lunch time. 
A.66: Uh-huh. 
B.67: And he could have disap-, gotten away at lunch time --
A.68: Uh-huh. 
B.69: -- and committed the robbery. 
A.70: Yeah. 
B.71: But after nine years, - well as a matter of fact they made a T V show about it, after nine years, they finally came up with evidence and proved, to prove that he was innocent. 
A.72: Oh, for heaven's sake. So there's nine years of that man's life gone. 
B.73: Exactly. 
A.74: Uh-huh. 
B.75: Now that just was not fair. 
A.76: No, huh-uh. 
B.77: So. -
A.78: Yeah, I guess that's where a lot of the problem lies, we're, we bend over backwards protecting the guilty people, the one's that are on trial. 
B.79: Yes. 
A.80: And, +
B.81: Unfortunately, that's what happens. 
A.82: And we often forget about the one the injustice has been done to, because I bet, they still say our system is the best in the world. 
B.83: Well, it's not, the, uh, uh, it's not the best system, but it's the best one in the world. 
A.84: Yeah, it's the best one that exists, I guess. 
B.85: Uh-huh. And unfortunately, we just have to put up with a lot of things, and they try to solve them and everything, but, uh, I don't know, the Supreme Court, well, I'm, I'm, I'm still rancled about their decision to permit burning of the flag. 
A.86: Oh, I think a lot of people are. I think they've lost sight of some things that are very important to our country. 
B.87: Well, it, - the, the, the First Amendment definitely says freedom of speech --
A.88: Uh-huh. 
B.89: -- not freedom of action. 
A.90: Yeah. 
B.91: And, uh, uh, well that just rancles me no, I swear, if I ever saw somebody to, uh, burning a flag, I'd, I'd try to kill them, I would. 
A.92: <Laughter> That bad, huh. I wouldn't like it, but I don't know if I'd go that far. 
B.93: Well, I happen to be a flag freak. I served, I was in the service -- 
A.94: Uh-huh. 
B.95: -- I was in Korea -- 
A.96: Uh-huh. 
B.97: -- and, uh, well, I saw what the red in the flag represents. 
A.98: Yeah, well, I think pride in our country and our flag is so important. It's important in so many facets of our lives. 
B.99: Uh-huh. 
A.100: And, uh, I, I feel like if they don't, people don't like what our flag stands for, they're welcome to go some place else. 
B.101: Yeah, see what they, +
A.102: There's nobody holding them here. 
B.103: See how they'd like it under another flag. 
A.104: Right. They'd soon be back, I'm sure. 
B.105: Uh-huh. 
A.106: Yeah. 
B.107: Well, Jean, we seem to be of the same opinions here. 
A.108: Uh-huh. 
B.109: I hope they get something out of this. 
A.110: Yeah, I don't know about the judge making the decision, if that's, - do you think that's good --
B.111: Oh --
A.112: -- you know, like if a jury, -
B.113: -- passing sentence? 
A.114: Uh-huh. 
B.115: Well, uh, uh, yes, but I think the jury should be able to recommend, 
A.116: Make a recommendation? 
B.117: Yes. 
A.118: Do they sometimes make a recommendation? 
B.119: Oh, yes, yes. 
A.120: That's what I was thinking they, they sometimes do. 
B.121: I don't know if that's a regular procedure or what. But I know I'm always hearing that, uh, well, the jury came in with a guilty verdict and they recommended,
A.122: And they recommend. 
B.123: twenty years or something. 
A.124: Yeah. And then the judge has the final decision --
B.125: Yes. 
A.126: -- on what does really happen. Yeah. 
B.127: Of course, now, the jury may not be completely aware of all the ramifications of a sentence. 
A.128: Uh-huh. 
B.129: They may not know that if you give him twenty years he can get out in five. 
A.130: Well, I think that's where a lot of people think, boy they're getting put away for a long time, but actually, their chance, - course, when, a lot of times when they come up for parole, they're denied. It depends on --
B.131: Uh-huh. 
A.132: -- you know, what they're, what they'd been guilty of, and a lot of different things, I guess. 
B.133: Yeah, but too many times they, they are permitted to go out on parole and, -
A.134: Uh-huh. A lot slip through the protective whatever they have to do. And there are bad ones that do slip back out and end up hurting somebody again. 
B.135: Yes. They just go out and repeat their crimes. 
A.136: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.137: Well there, - well, they say after three offenses its automatically life in prison, but I think they ought to make it two offenses. 
A.138: Uh-huh. I always thought there was, there was wrong, - it seems sometimes that like somebody who is stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family got more jail sentence than somebody maybe that killed somebody. 
B.139: Uh-huh. 
A.140: It seemed like there, sometimes there's not a good, - the balance isn't right. It doesn't make sense. 
B.141: Yeah, very true. Well, here again now, there is where race seems to rear its ugly head so frequently. 
A.142: Uh-huh. 
B.143: Race or nationality even. 
A.144: Uh-huh, yeah. 
B.145: <<Pause>> But, uh, like you said, it's, it's not the best system, but it's the best one we've got. 
A.146: Yeah, right. So, let's put up with it, I guess. 
B.147: Uh-huh. 
A.148: Improve it if we can, if we ever get a chance. 
B.149: Sure enough. 
A.150: So. -
B.151: Jean, it's been awful nice talking to you. 
A.152: Well, it's been nice talking to you, Jack, and I hope you have a real good day and week. 
B.153: Well let's hope neither one of us ever has to run into this subject we were discussing. 
A.154: <Laughter> I hope not. 
B.155: Take care now. 
A.156: You, too. 
B.157: Bye. 
A.158: Bye-bye. 

A.1: Are you a T I -er? 
B.2: Uh, yeah, I am. 
A.3: Oh, good. 
B.4: Yeah, yeah, I've --
A.5: Yeah, uh, she --
B.6: -- been, uh, -
A.7: -- had a hard time getting a few folks, uh, I thought, well every, all these T I -ers have gone home, uh,
B.8: I, uh, -
A.9: at one o'clock on Friday. 
B.10: It is Friday, yeah, 
A.11: <Laughter>.
B.12: that's for sure. Well, uh, I guess, - I'm trying to think the last thing I did to a car. 
A.13: I, I, I do it a lot. I have, - I kind of worked my way through college as a mechanic as a kid. 
B.14: Oh, wow. Okay. 
A.15: Uh, so, and my father and brother were in it and, and my brother's still in it. And I had periods when I didn't do anything, but in the last ten years I've, uh, my car doesn't go to a shop, you know, it, it, -
B.16: Uh-huh. 
A.17: I just do it all. Do, - I, uh, - there's hardly anything that, other than putting tires on, that I'll do. I --
B.18: Yeah. 
A.19: -- did take it to a transmission place to put in a new transmission but,
B.20: Sure. 
A.21: I change the oil and transmission and, uh, uh, I do, essentially do it all. I don't know, uh, uh, if there's anything specific. In fact, I could advise people, uh, I happen to be a M E besides. But --
B.22: Uh-huh. 
A.23: -- I do it for fun really and to save --
B.24: Right. 
A.25: -- money. 
B.26: Right. 
A.27: And I guess that's diversion. Uh, I, I've, I've tried a few groups, uh, you know, where you, - I can recommend it for people to take their cars. Like I think Sears is probably the best place --
B.28: Yeah. 
A.29: -- because,
B.30: Yeah. 
A.31: I've heard, - when I used to go there and when I, I just overheard what they did for me, very little because I didn't take it that much. But what I heard them tell other people was always right. 
B.32: Right. 
A.33: You know, when I sat there, I, you know, I dropped my car off for tires or something like that. 
B.34: Right. 
A.35: And so I respect, - they seem to actually have mechanics there. 
B.36: Yeah <laughter>, yeah. 
A.37: I was pretty impressed with Western Auto, but they didn't do a great job of changing my transmission, uh, oil last time. And when -- +
B.38: Really? 
A.39: -- when I did it the next time, I realized the filter was loose and everything, and I didn't like it. So I'm just doing it all myself. I, I, -
B.40: Yeah. That's, that's the aggravating thing. Yeah, I, I try to do as much as I can. I, uh, I grew up on farm so I've got that, uh, you know, take care of yourself attitude. 
A.41: You had to do it. Yeah, right. 
B.42: And, uh, oh, I've done, I've done various things. I've got an, I've got an eighty-three T Bird and I've, I've --
A.43: Oh. 
B.44: -- changed out, uh, heater core and,
A.45: Uh-huh. 
B.46: uh, oh, timing belts and things like that. Um, I guess the last thing I took to anybody to have done was on my wife's car, um, when we went in for inspection. 
A.47: Uh-huh. 
B.48: It didn't, it didn't quite pass. 
A.49: Yeah. 
B.50: So we had to have, uh, - that's, uh, that's a Mustang with a two barrel carburetor on it. 
A.51: Uh-huh. 
B.52: And they had to do some adjustments on that and of course it had never been adjusted so they had to pull it off and pull all the plugs out, to get to it. 
A.53: Oh, yeah. 
B.54: And, uh, -
A.55: Well, you like Fords, apparently, huh? 
B.56: Yeah, yeah. I've, uh, I'm kind of stuck on them right now, I guess. But, <laughter> you know, that's, - it's partially because I can work on them. That's, uh,
A.57: Yeah. 
B.58: that's, that's, that's a big part of my decision. But, uh, yeah, we ran into some problems with, uh, having them to work on that carburetor. I mean, they get, they got everything tuned up right, you know. But they, - we got, I got it home, and, uh, and they had left the, uh, oil f-, uh, cap off and it was rubbing --
A.59: Really? 
B.60: -- on a belt and it rubbed a notch in that. 
A.61: My goodness. 
B.62: Li-, little things like that, that really start to aggravate you. That, that's a lot of the reason I do my own stuff. 
A.63: Yeah. I won-, always wonder when you have little things like that happen, why, even here at T I, why we don't inspect, I'm in facilities, why we don't inspect areas and, and guarantee it so to speak. Uh,
B.64: Uh-huh. 
A.65: we always fix things and rep-, put things in and walk away. We, - there needs to be a time of inspection and check out. And, and s-, thing like that with a car, there ought to be someone there that inspects it before it's turned. There ought to be an insp-, inspector or quality insurance guy --
B.66: Sure.
A.67: -- after, after an oil change, you know. 
B.68: Sure, that's --
A.69: Just --
B.70: -- right. 
A.71: -- in case, uh, they didn't put the oil in or whatever. 
B.72: Sure. Yeah, i-, -
A.73: I, I always wonder about that when, when someone does repairs or little things like that, uh, 
B.74: Any, anything that gets, that, that's in a, gets to be an, an assembly line type operation, you're, you're always risking that. If there's, too many people that get their hands on one little project, you know, that things, they're, you get, y-, you miss that overlap --
A.75: Yeah. 
B.76: -- sometimes, and, and they miss things. Yeah, I've, I've had a hard time finding anybody I can trust. Like, like you say, it, it, - well, transmissions and things like that. I'm, obviously, I'm not going to, I'm not going to tear apart a automatic transmission --
A.77: No, no, 
B.78: -- and try rebuild it. 
A.79: I don't either. I don't either, yeah. 
B.80: But, uh, i-, it, it's, it's real stressful to try to find anybody that I think's going to do me right.
A.81: Yeah. 
B.82: And, and, uh, you know, have an idea of what's going on. 
A.83: You need to really, uh, - I, I do, uh, a lot of the simple things. I, I think I do most of the things better than the average person. 
B.84: Uh-huh. 
A.85: You, you have Fords and I, I, uh, I have three Chevys, which -- 
B.86: Okay. 
A.87: -- I worked my way into having the same engine. I don't know how long I'm, -
B.88: Yeah. 
A.89: I like a V-eight. And I'm, I'm, ]
B.90: Oh, yeah. 
A.91: s-, sold on small block Chevy V-eights. And I, +
B.92: Yeah. 
A.93: I bought one car new, and I almost accidentally got the next car, although I was kind of looking for it when I got a u-, a used car with the same engine. 
B.94: Uh-huh. 
A.95: Well then the nex-, the truck I got next, I definitely looked for the same engine. So I buy filters, you know, three or four at a time. 
B.96: Sure. 
A.97: And essentially --
B.98: Sure. 
A.99: -- the engines are different y-, - the cars are different years, but the same Chevy V-eight. 
B.100: Uh-huh. 
A.101: And the par-, the carburetors is the same. Almost everything is the same. Th-, the course is two are eighties and one eighty-six, you know. 
B.102: Uh-huh. 
A.103: So you can learn a lot that way. I, - there's no way I could, I could fix every car in the world, you know. 
B.104: Well, yeah. That, that, - the biggest, you know, that's the three biggest things to me, you know. I-, i-, - number one, you've got to have the tools around. 
A.105: Yeah. 
B.106: If you don't have the, the special tools or, - well, any more the, the testers, that, you know. -
A.107: Yeah. 
B.108: <Laughter> I, I don't have a forty thousand dollar diagnostic tester sitting --
A.109: Right. 
B.110: -- in my garage, you know. So obviously if it starts, my car starts missing or something like that, th-, it's almost impossible to track that down any more --
A.111: Yeah. 
B.112: -- without a diagnostics. But at the tools and the space to do it, that, that can be a big problem if it's, if it's under carriage or something like that. But, then it's experience. You know, you can, you can look through a, a Chilton's book or something like and get an idea of how to go about it. But you better figure on multiplying that time out, about by at least by five or so.
A.113: Yeah. 
B.114: Ju-, just, just by not knowing, you know, how to get to that, that one bolt or that one --
A.115: Yeah. 
B.116: -- screw or whatever to get things apart. That was, that was the biggest thing when I did, uh, the heater core in my T Bird. That is got to be the worst location for it. 
A.117: Yeah. 
B.118: And, and the only reason I did it, - I, -
A.119: I think they're all bad, really. They're, -
B.120: Yeah, <laughter> yeah. The, the only ones I've ever heard good, good things about are, are the old Lincolns and Cadillacs where --
A.121: Uh-huh. 
B.122: -- they had the little door underneath the hood. You just open the door and pop it out. 
A.123: Is that right? 
B.124: Yeah. But, but, uh, I, I had, I had taken this in to have it done originally. 
A.125: Yeah. 
B.126: And, uh, -
A.127: What did they want to charge you for it? 
B.128: Oh, it, it was, it was tremend-, - well it was about seven hours labor. 
A.129: Yeah. 
B.130: So it, it was going to run about four hundred dollars or so. 
A.131: Yeah. 
B.132: And they looked it over and they, they, they thought they could patch it up a little bit, you know, and what not. So they, -
A.133: This is your little water, uh, heater in there, for the, uh,
B.134: Yeah. 
A.135: the heat inside? 
B.136: Yeah. And it was, it was leaking inside the car,
A.137: Yeah. 
B.138: in the condenser unit. So, uh, they, they did a little patch on it, and it l-, it held for about four to six months. And I finally went back in and started looking at it myself. And i-, it's a matter of tearing all the dash out and all that kind of stuff, but,
A.139: Yeah. 
B.140: hey, it was not, uh, it was not a seven hour labor --
A.141: Yeah. 
B.142: -- job for me. It was about a week before I finally --
A.143: Did you get it --
B.144: -- through. -
A.145: -- inside or outside? I, I took one off my little Buick I had, and I pretty much took it loose on the inside. But it came out from the, you know, underneath the hood. 
B.146: Yeah. 
A.147: It came from, -
B.148: Oh, really? 
A.149: Yeah. 
B.150: No, this, this was, - the only thing that sticks, in, inside the engine compartment on this are the two, uh, hose fittings. 
A.151: Maybe you're right, maybe you're right. I, - it's been a long time since I took one out. 
B.152: Yeah. It, it's, - I, I've never heard a good story about, uh, -
A.153: Course, I broke mine, you know, so I'm always very careful when I change hoses on it. 
B.154: Yeah. 
A.155: I don't know whether you did yours. Not to really pull on those. - I, +
B.156: Right. 
A.157: when I take those hoses, I cut them off --
B.158: Okay. 
A.159: -- very gingerly.
B.160: Yeah. 
A.161: Because if you sp-, you know, pull on that, - and I've always done that as a kid, you know, just yanked on it. 
B.162: Uh-huh. 
A.163: And they must have been stronger and heavier copper at the time. 
B.164: Sure. 
A.165: But I broke one on my, on my Buick. And I always remembered it was my own fault, and I thought, well I'm going to t-, going to carefully take those hoses off. 
B.166: You bet. Well that, that's what ended up being the real problem on this, was the, uh, i-, the, the pipe wasn't busted, but the, it wasn't soldered in good enough. 
A.167: Oh, really? Yeah. 
B.168: And it had, it had broken loose enough to where if it got hot, -
A.169: It, it spread out, yeah. 
B.170: and just normal driving didn't do it. But if, if, if it was an especially hot day, the pressure would get high enough -- 
A.171: Yeah. 
B.172: -- and it would start blowing the water out inside. 
A.173: Yeah. 
B.174: It was real aggravating, but, uh, I, I, couldn't eve-, even - a week's, a week's time is, is worth <laughter> a whole lot less than, four, than four hundred dollars to me, you know,
A.175: Yeah. 
B.176: than to have somebody else do it. 
A.177: Sometimes if you're a tinkerer, you luck out. My wife's,
B.178: Uh-huh. 
A.179: uh, Chevy, uh, it was a Caprice, air conditioning stopped. I, I just heard it. I realized that the air conditioning wasn't cutting in. 
B.180: Uh-huh. 
A.181: And I went out there for five minutes, and I just pushed on the wires. And sure enough, just pure dumb luck, that the connection over by, - it's not the evaporator, the big filter on one side. 
B.182: Uh-huh. 
A.183: I just pushed that in, and I heard it click. 
B.184: Yeah. 
A.185: And so sometimes you have dumb luck. I, I was, you know, - you could have taken something like that and thought, well, the compressor's not working. Or it would have taken me all day probably if I didn't do that. But --
B.186: Right. 
A.187: -- sometimes you have some dumb luck. If you --
B.188: That's true. 
A.189: -- have a little curiosity and you have enough knowledge to check things out. I know, I feel bad for people who just, when anything goes wrong, a fuse, you know, they just have to take it. And I know --
B.190: Uh-huh. 
A.191: -- that's tough if you don't, uh, at least give it a shot. I've got girls, daughters, and I've always said I'd teach them. And my, my one daughter was fairly interested. And I really haven't gotten around to, - I learned because I, I just, uh, learned, you know and,
B.192: Yeah. 
A.193: I feel bad about not at least showing them some of the things. And I'm going to do that. I, I told my daughters in college this year, I said, This summer we're definitely going to spend a little more time on the car. I said, So you can learn the basics, you know. 
B.194: Well, yeah. A-, - and, and not only from a, from an economic standpoint, just, just pure safety, you know. If you can, +
A.195: Yeah. 
B.196: if she can get yourself out of a bad situation without having to, to go to a phone booth and stand around and wait. It, it, +
A.197: Right. 
B.198: it can, it can save a lot of time and trouble. 
A.199: I have the, - there's one expression I don't like, <<sound fading>> uh, the country expression, you know, if it ain't, if it ain't broke don't fix it. 

A.1: About how many calls have you made on this system? 
B.2: Uh, I've originated only a, a few. 
A.3: Oh, okay, yeah. 
B.4: But I've received quite a few. 
A.5: I, uh, I only started doing it after, uh, I started getting calls and said, oh, heck, that's right, I'm supposed to make a few calls. So I started about a month ago and I, -
B.6: Uh-huh. 
A.7: this is getting close to twenty here which is I think is about all, uh, our little gift book goes up to, but I don't really know. 
B.8: Oh, yeah. 
A.9: I've got about twelve tickets in the mail. Do you have, - you've a few? 
B.10: Yeah, I've been getting mine. 
A.11: Okay, medical - go ahead, I'm, I'm medical. That's mine. 
B.12: Uh, you pushed the record button. We're supposed to be discussing the subject. 
A.13: Yeah. I, I'm benefits. Go ahead, you first. 
B.14: Yeah, uh, well, I'll tell you, I've been around for quite a few years and worked for a lot of different companies, and, uh, it's hard to beat any of the benefits that, or salaries either,
A.15: Uh-huh. 
B.16: that we get from T I. I'm quite pleased with it. Course there's a few things that, uh, I think I could do better if I was sitting up in the C E O's seat but, uh --
A.17: Oh, yeah. 
B.18: -- I think Jerry's doing a pretty good job as it goes. 
A.19: The one, - it's kind of like, uh, - automobile insurance, - the ones, uh, that I think are the highest and important to me, uh, I hope I never have to use them, really per se, although I've used medical a little bit -- 
B.20: Uh-huh. 
A.21: -- that, well that one certainly is high, I, I worry that it's weakening rather than strengthening so I like to reverse that trend and say I'd like to get those to strengthen, you know,
B.22: <Throat_clearing>. 
A.23: be better and better. 
B.24: Well, -
A.25: Then sal-, sal-, salary continuance, I've never used that one. I hope I never will, but that's kind of like an insurance thing. I sure like that one. 
B.26: Oh, yes. 
A.27: That's like automobile insurance. You never want to get in an accident but it, you like to have it there. 
B.28: Uh-huh. Well, uh, like I say, I worked for several different companies and there's nothing to compare with, uh, T I here. 
A.29: Uh-huh. 
B.30: Now I really got caught up back in eighty-five, I got caught up in the oil layoff <breathing>, uh, I wasn't with G S I, but I was connected with, uh, uh, oil, uh,
A.31: Right. 
B.32: exploration. 
A.33: With T I, or somebody else? 
B.34: No, with T I. 
A.35: Uh-huh. 
B.36: But I say, I wasn't connected with G S I. 
A.37: Oh, right, yeah. 
B.38: And, I got caught up in a layoff. 
A.39: Um. 
B.40: Now, uh, course you get six months, uh, unemployment from the State -- 
A.41: Yeah. 
B.42: -- but, what T I did for us is, is, uh, I've never heard of it before. They fixed us up with an office with, uh, telephones, access to long-distance, uh, computers, a secretary to take messages for us or type, uh, letters,
A.43: Right. 
B.44: for us. Uh, they had out of town newspapers and then, -
A.45: And outside consultants. Didn't they have an outside consultant, too? 
B.46: I beg your pardon. 
A.47: Did they have an outside consultant, like a, <breathing> the employ-, -
B.48: Uh, yes. They did have, uh, seminars every once in a while. 
A.49: Yeah. 
B.50: Uh, course that was not, uh, restricted just to just us. 
A.51: Right. 
B.52: But the most important thing was that, uh, they had made up the difference between, uh, unemployment pay and seventy-five percent of my net pay. And they then, - T I paid me that. 
A.53: Oh, really? 
B.54: So, uh, I was able to, uh, not just exist. I mean, I, I lived just as comfortably as I did before I was laid off. 
A.55: Yeah, they seem to be do-, doing a good job of that. I'm in facilities, and our organization built, builds those facilities over in Park Central now. 
B.56: Uh-huh. 
A.57: And I guess they've been using them for six months now. And I've known several engineers that got laid off and they said <breathing> it's like getting a Ph D almost, they, the much they learn over there, you know, after they've been laid off, uh, one engineer said it was really an education. He, he just learned, like you, he said he learned a tremendous amount that he never would have able to pick up on his own. He was very thankful for that, too. 
B.58: Well, this was not a learning thing by any means. It was just a, uh,
A.59: To have an office, yeah. 
B.60: an assistance trying to find another job. 
A.61: Yeah. Well, he said he learned so much and how, - he thought, he thought he had a Ph D in how to get a job after he was,
B.62: Oh. 
A.63: through the whole process,
B.64: Uh-huh. 
A.65: for, for several months. He did eventually get a job. 
B.66: Well, course I went through this, uh, what, about five years ago. They may have improved it considerably. 
A.67: Yeah, apparently. It's very sophisticated. And I guess it may be one of the best, uh, that anyone's doing. 
B.68: Well, that's one of those little, uh, uh, little extras that you don't see in the, uh, the, the, the handbook, you know. 
A.69: Right. You're absolutely right. That's a good one. 
B.70: It, -
A.71: What do you think about pensions? Anything on that or, -
B.72: Well, now I have, uh, uh, - I'm getting close to retirement. 
A.73: Yeah. 
B.74: And, of course I've been looking into it but, uh, since I'm only a yellow badger,
A.75: Uh-huh. 
B.76: I won't be getting a whole heck of a lot from T I,
A.77: Right. 
B.78: as far as retirement is concerned. 
A.79: What do you think of a pension that goes from one company to the other like an account like a four O one account. I, I've been thinking about that for years, uh, 
B.80: I've never heard of such a thing. 
A.81: I know. That's what I'm saying that, that pensions, - you see, just like you were, you're saying, you've only got, uh, so many years, say you work for two, three companies, you take your pension with you after you're vested.
B.82: Uh-huh. 
A.83: And then just add the money together like you do with a four O one account, you know. 
B.84: Uh, yeah. 
A.85: Uh, it's your account, period. It doesn't matter where you go or anything. That's your account to roll over. 
B.86: I, - that, that sounds like a hell of an idea. I didn't know there was such a thing. 
A.87: No, no there isn't. I, I'm saying that's the question. What do you think could be better and I'm saying that pensions, say in the year two thousand or more when social security goes away, which it probably will, - I think they ought to have a pension at least that you'd never lose. So you work for a company seven years, -
B.88: Yes, by all means. Well, what would be the difference between that and social security? 
A.89: Uh, well social security's going to go to way, I think and you can, or you can invest your own money. You have no control over your social security. And it's not paid for by the current, - like when, - say we retire after the year two thousand, social security's paid for by the twenty-five year olds. You know, they may rebel and you won't have any social security. Where, if your money was in your account, I mean, you can never lose it, it's there. 
B.90: Yeah, yeah. 
A.91: You don't have to depend on anybody to be putting that money in for you, you know. That's just a thought. I mean, I, -
B.92: Uh-huh. 
A.93: if they say which, -
B.94: No, I, I like the idea. 
A.95: Yeah. 
B.96: Course, that's, that's, some-, something like an I R A. 
A.97: Yeah, and instead of having a, a socialized pension, it just would be really money that you and your company, - maybe you had to put some money in it, too, I don't really know. But I, +
B.98: Uh-huh. 
A.99: I can see where they'd need to do something on that because the statistics are, - you don't work for a company twenty years through no fault of your own, you know. You work for five, six, seven, and y-, y-, - a lot of people I know, guys, -
B.100: Yeah, that, that's what I've done. I, I've bounced around. 
About every ten years,
A.101: Yeah. 
B.102: I change. 
A.103: I have, too, but not, not quite that often but, uh, yeah, I've only got, uh, I've got, I guess fourteen now here at T I, and I hope to make twenty-five which - say if something happened to me, - I mean, you know, they lay me off, so, you have a pension but then you'd have to try to get a pension in another one. It would be nice if they could get them together. 
B.104: Uh-huh. 
A.105: I do worry about medical, though. Again, knock wood that, uh, I haven't used it. I guess you, - I'm sorry, you really do use it throughout the year, because you get your teeth fixed and all that, I mean, I, - but I'm not, - I'm talking about major items I haven't used it for anything major. 
B.106: Uh-huh. 
A.107: I'm glad it's there, though. 
B.108: Well, knock wood, I haven't used mine for anything major. Just doctor visits and, well, I, I have the, uh, the H O M A. I use H O M A. 
A.109: Yeah. 
B.110: And I like that, uh, a lot better than AETNA. 
A.111: I have the regular. I, again, I just, - I haven't, - I can't complain about it because I haven't used it and every time I needed it, it, it, it's, uh, you know,
B.112: Uh-huh. 
A.113: fallen right in line for the, the, minor things I guess I'm the one just supporting most of the others. 
B.114: Well, doesn't it work, you don't see, uh, uh, anything until you spend the minimum? 
A.115: Uh, 
B.116: Don't you have to spend the minimum of two, three hundred? 
A.117: yeah, yeah, I think it's two seventy-five for a family but the dental is right away,
B.118: Yeah. 
A.119: if you, - exams. Uh, -
B.120: Well now, I have the same dental you have. 
A.121: Okay. Yeah, the medical you have to have a deductible. 
B.122: Uh-huh. Now, see I don't have a deductible. 
A.123: Yeah, right. 
B.124: I pay a straight five dollars for anything, a doctor visit or drugs <breathing>. 
A.125: Well, drugs are okay, now, I'm on that, uh, plan, where I take blood pressure medicine. If you take an allergy medicine, so, anything you need a prescription for, for more than six months, you get it for, used to be six bucks, they just raised it to twelve. 
B.126: Oh, that one I haven't heard about. 
A.127: Yeah, that's a typical, that's a typical one that's in there. The forms are right in personnel. 
B.128: Uh-huh. 
A.129: Fact, you may be able to take care, take advantage of that. It's through
Baxter Labs. Uh, 
B.130: Yeah, I have high blood pressure problems myself. 
A.131: Maybe you still can do that. Do you, do you buy your pills one at a time? 
B.132: Yeah, thirty days at a time. 
A.133: Well, tur-, turn in your forms. Go right to personnel. I don't know whether you have to about an H M O. I don't think so. You turn, you get your doctor to give you a more than six months prescription and, uh, they're twelve dollars, again, they just were six, they just raised them to twelve this year. Twelve dollars for a three months supply.
B.134: Um. 
A.135: Or whatever, whatever the, the amount is, uh. I don't want to say three months, but --
B.136: Uh-huh. 
A.137: -- it's a lot cheaper, allergy medicine's really, uh, expensive and that blood pressure medicine is fairly expensive. I take two. 
B.138: Uh-huh. 
A.139: Go right to personnel. They got the forms in personnel and maybe, +
B.140: Yeah, great. 
A.141: maybe I'll tell you go something you didn't know about in benefits <laughter>. 
B.142: Yeah, I just might do that. 
A.143: I do it, yeah, you know, it's a very common thing. 
B.144: Well thanks, 
A.145: It's through Baxter Labs, tell, -
B.146: thanks for the tip, Jim. 
A.147: Yeah. 
B.148: I shall look into it. 
A.149: Yeah. What else. I'm sure we're getting close to our five minutes whatever, here. 
B.150: Yeah <laughter>. Uh, let's see, we discussed, uh, uh, medical and dental, 
A.151: What other benefits, 
B.152: uh, retirement. 
A.153: Yeah, salary continuation. I think that's a great one, but again a hope I never use that one. 
B.154: Uh-huh. 
A.155: That means you're really sick if you have to use that one. 
B.156: What about vacation? 
A.157: I'm satisfied with the vacation. I don't know what else, you know, you say, say you get another week and, - I'm, well, I only got fourteen years so I'll get another week when I hit fifteen. 
B.158: Uh, yeah, that's right. 
A.159: So that's, that's fair, I mean, it's reasonable. Four weeks is a lot, I think. I know some people who have twenty-five years and thirty and they want more but, uh, you know, -
B.160: Uh-huh. 
A.161: Uh. 
B.162: Well, I'm, uh, I'm here, I've got just eleven years and I don't think I'll ever see a, a silver badge. 
A.163: Uh-huh. 
B.164: I won't, I won't be around that long. 
A.165: Well, the way things go, I think I'm going to have to work till I'm seventy-five whether I quit and, uh, uh, or when I retire get a part-time job, 

A.1: Okay. 
B.2: Okay. Well, uh, anyways, I'm not exactly sure I, I wasn't really, uh, paying attention as to what particular, uh, parts of capital punishment we're supposed to talk about, but it was, uh, basically what's your views on, whether you thought there was certain cases that should be used, that sort of thing? 
A.3: Yeah. 
B.4: Right. And, uh, I don't know, I've, I've always thought that any, uh, crime that, uh, that, uh, intentionally where someone goes out and premeditatively takes another life would be the ones where I think that capital punishment would be necessary to keep that person from perhaps, uh, doing it again, and even more so to get people on the outside who are professionals to realize that, you know, there's a, a very steep penalty to, uh, be paid --
A.5: Uh-huh. 
B.6: -- when that's done, and, uh. Yeah, how do you feel about it? 
A.7: Uh, I believe in it, too <laughter>. 
B.8: Uh-huh. 
A.9: I'm Catholic and we're not supposed to, but, uh, I feel that it, - like you, you know, on the premeditated murders I feel if you're, you know, I mean, if it's beyond a doubt that you did it, you know --
B.10: Uh-huh. 
A.11: -- I would say go ahead and execute that person as well. 
B.12: Uh-huh. 
A.13: But, it's the cases, you know, - like sometimes you, you know, you hear of people that they say they went to jail falsely, you know, they really didn't do it. Well, you know, you, you got, you got that point well, h-, you know, what, what if a mistake is made and you put someone, you know, to death that really didn't do it. 
B.14: Right, exactly. 
A.15: There's always that chance, I don't know, but, I would say that, you know, for that many people to all of them agree that you did it and it was premeditated, it would be kind of hard for, you know, -
B.16: Uh-huh. 
A.17: You know what I'm saying? Like, -
B.18: Right. If, if the evidence wasn't overwhelming, right? 
A.19: Yeah. 
B.20: Uh-huh. 
A.21: So, uh, I, -
B.22: Well, I think that should be likewise decided by the jury, you know, because, I don't know, I think a jury would be less likely to just send a man to death just for, any reason, 
A.23: Uh-huh. 
B.24: I don't know a judge might be a little more cold-blooded about it. 
A.25: Exactly. Uh, I'm not sure about Pennsylvania, whether we have it or not. For some reason I was thinking that we do, but it's, you know, it's not very often. I think maybe last year was the first time in like eighteen years or something like that, that anyone --
B.26: Yeah, I don't think we, -
A.27: -- anyone from Pennsylvania had gotten it. I don't, - do you know if Virginia has it? 
B.28: No, huh-uh. No we don't. 
A.29: Uh-huh. 
B.30: Yeah. 
A.31: I know Florida has it. 
B.32: Uh-huh. Oh, yeah <laughter>, 
A.33: <Laughter>.
B.34: they're always in Florida. Florida and Louisiana, I think, and, uh, some of the,
A.35: Uh-huh. 
B.36: other southern states. 
A.37: Yeah. 
B.38: Course they have such a crime problem because they have such a un-, unemployment rate. 
A.39: Uh, you know, -
B.40: Get that unemployment way up so then people, you know tend towards crime, and then they <breathing> they start stiffening the penalties. 
A.41: Yeah. But it's funny that, uh, - I mean, like, you know, like I said I think last year was the first time in like eighteen years for Pennsylvania. I'm not even sure of that, but for some reason I think that, you know, it was something like that. And, it surprised, - and even Florida, I know they have it, and you don't really hear about it real often, how many people, -
B.42: Well, in Florida seems like, uh, two or three times a year. It's constantly on the, -
A.43: Yeah, but, you, you think that, - I mean if you think of how many premeditated murders are committed,
B.44: Yeah. 
A.45: you know, compared to that and to how many people are being sent, that doesn't seem like very many. 
B.46: No, that's true. Course they have a requirement that, uh, that every single appeal must be permitted. 
A.47: Yeah. 
B.48: So, of course, the, the attorneys,
A.49: Everyone would appeal. 
B.50: take them through the whole chain.
A.51: That's true, too. 
B.52: You know, even if the case is open and closed, they go all the way up to the Supreme Court, you know. 
A.53: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.54: They almost always get thrown right back out again, but they have to have every single appeal made open to them. And, you know, it's sort of strange because it almost <<pause>>, it almost seems like the attorneys are doing it for the money or something because, I mean, the guy knows that, whether it's, you know, a, a month or two, or six years, he's still going to get, you know, the chair when it comes around <laughter>.
A.55: Uh-huh. 
B.56: You know. 
A.57: Yeah. 
B.58: Some of these guys are really, uh, you know, violent Son of Sam killers and stuff like that, you know. 
A.59: Yeah, uh-huh. 
B.60: I mean, they, -
A.61: And then they get out. 
B.62: everyone knows they're going get, not going to get out. 
A.63: Yeah, they get out in three years on probation, 
B.64: Yeah. 
A.65: and they do it again, you know. 
B.66: Uh-huh. 
A.67: It's like a slap on the fingers for them. 
B.68: Uh-huh. 
A.69: I don't, I don't, e-, e-, I don't, - I think that it should be, - I mean if it's beyond a doubt that someone did premeditate someone, a murder, then I think, you know, that they should likewise, you know, someone should take their life also. But, uh, but, are, are you, would you draw the line there with just the premeditated murder? 
B.70: I think so. 
A.71: Yeah. 
B.72: Uh, a lot of the, the, the other violent crimes I don't really feel that strongly about. Although, you know, stiffer sentences and lessening the effects of parole, -
A.73: Uh-huh. 
B.74: I mean, these guys are certainly not going to, uh, be, - they can't, - I mean they're getting into drugs and fights and all that stuff in prison. I don't think the parole system is really helping that much <laughter>. 
A.75: Yeah. 
B.76: Reduce the violence in the prisons. I think that's its only purpose --
A.77: Uh-huh. 
B.78: -- is, is, you know, to reduce, uh, the violence in the prisons so people behave themselves a little bit better if they think they're going to get off early. +
A.79: Yeah. 
B.80: Off earlier. But some of these guys just don't care,
A.81: <Laughter>. 
B.82: you know. And so, uh, -
A.83: I think some of them would rather be in jail <laughter>. 
B.84: Yeah, right, uh-huh. 
A.85: Yeah. They probably have it better in jail than what they would out in the streets. 
B.86: Um, that's possible I guess. 
A.87: I don't know, uh, I was just going to say something, I forgot what it was. <<pause>> Oh, I don't even remember what it was now. 
B.88: Um, so where do you live in Pennsylvania? 
A.89: In Clarion. Well, I live in Butler, but I'm at c-, I'm at college. I'm at Clarion University. 
B.90: Oh, okay. I don't think I really know that. 
A.91: Yeah <laughter>. 
B.92: Because, uh, you know, - that all depends, too, on where you are at. That's, uh, sort of interesting to get opinions as to where different parts of the country are. Because the more grass root country, uh, parts of the country tend to, to support capital punishment, where the places that are, you know, less in contact with crime --
A.93: Uh-huh. 
B.94: -- you know, the, the more, more urban, I mean less, -
A.95: See, yeah, okay, well, see, I'm, I'm in kind, I'm in kind, - okay, uh, we only have seven thousand students in the entire campus. 
B.96: Uh-huh. 
A.97: Yeah, and that would be pushing it. So, I mean this is definitely a college town. Uh, we're about two hours north of Pittsburgh if that would help you out any. Uh, 
B.98: Two hours where? 
A.99: North of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 
B.100: Oh, okay. Near Polk? 
A.101: Oh, I've never heard of Polk but, -
B.102: Polk Institute. It's, uh, an old, uh, university that turned into a place for the mentally retarded. Uh,
A.103: Oh, I never heard of that. 
B.104: Very old, uh, historical place there. 
A.105: It might have a new name. 
B.106: Sharon, Pennsylvania's up there. 
A.107: Yeah, yeah. 
B.108: Yeah. 
A.109: We're probably about an hour away from Sharon. 
B.110: Oh, okay. 
A.111: Uh-huh. Uh, so, I, most of the kids here, I, you know, - like, you know, just from dorm mates and stuff, they'll say that they don't believe in it, but then after I would say my point of view, then they'll say, well, yeah, you know, da-, you know. -
B.112: In that case, maybe, you know. 
A.113: Yeah. You know, I think people can be persuaded one way or another. I've never seriously ran into someone, I mean like, other than my priest, you know, who definitely says you can't take a, you know, you can't take anyone's life. Uh, anyone that is like so against it that you couldn't persuade them in any instance. 
B.114: Right. That's true. Yeah, well, it, it, you know, - you get certain circumstances where you hear about these people that have, you know, stolen kids and, you know,
A.115: Uh-huh. 
B.116: done terrible things to them and killed them and, you know, that sort of thing, you just - like, I don't want that person sharing the Earth with me, you know, I mean, that is just --
A.117: Exac-, - yeah <laughter>. 
B.118: -- terrible. 
A.119: Uh-huh. 
B.120: And, uh, you know, we had a case like that here and, on the other hand, you know, people are saying that because the, he knows, because the criminals know that the, uh, penalties can be very severe, they, uh, there's less criminals that are, you know, turning themselves in, or, you know, pleading or whatever, because they know that the judge, you know, if they find them guilty is, you know, has the, the opportunity to sentence them, you know, for, for the death sentence. 
A.121: Yeah, but you know I look at that and say, well, they should have thought about that beforehand.
B.122: Yeah. 
A.123: You know. 
B.124: Well, I'm just saying that, that, that's what, the, the client, lawyers are saying. They're saying that, you know, you know, more of my clients would have pleaded guilty if they would have gotten a light sentence instead of possibly having to, to, to get a death sentence because you can't plea bargain --
A.125: Uh-huh. 
B.126: -- what the sentence is going to be. 
A.127: Uh-huh. 
B.128: You can plea bargain what you're guilty of, but, you know.
A.129: Yeah. 
B.130: But not how they're going to sentence you , 
A.131: That's something, you know <laughter>, - but, uh, <laughter> wh-, whether they plea bargain or not, if they're guilty of murder, they're guilty of murder, you know. 
B.132: Right, uh-huh. 
A.133: So I don't think that they deserve anything less <laughter>. 
B.134: Yeah, right. 
A.135: It's just, - I don't, I don't know, I just <laughter>, -
B.136: Uh-huh. I was just saying that way, - what they're saying is that they can't get people to turn themselves in then. And so, we have to go through a trial then to prove the person's guilty. 
A.137: Uh-huh, and that costs money, yeah. 
B.138: And perhaps we can and perhaps we can't and so the guy might get off. 
A.139: Uh-huh. 
B.140: <Laughter> And, uh, although usually the guys that are turning themselves in are, are guys that are, you know going to get caught anyways but,
A.141: <Laughter>.
B.142: There's always a few of those people that are, you know, lost their head or whatever. 
A.143: Yeah. 
B.144: Anyways, but, uh. Yeah, we just had a terrible case in Virginia where some girl disappeared and, and the guy, like I said, he just, uh, said that he took her, but he won't admit that she died or whatever, and he won't say where the body is because he knows the penalty's very s-, s-, you know, mandatory life sentences for murder. 

A.1: So, child care, your views. 
B.2: Uh, well, we only have one child right now and another one on the way and right now I'm, I'm all with her during the day. I, if I was looking for outside care I probably would stay away from professional child care centers and try to find, if I was close to home, relatives or people with it is same values and possibly religious faith or something similar so that she would be raised in an environment that would be similar to what we would have in our own homes as, as parents. 
A.3: And what religious faith? 
B.4: Uh, Latter Day Saints. 
A.5: Oh --
B.6: So --
A.7: -- that's, that's good. 
B.8: -- so that's what I would try to do. With a teaching background I've, um, had a little bit of experience with the child day care type situations but I've seen some good ones and I've seen some really bad ones. 
A.9: Uh, they do seem to be at the outside edge of both extremes don't they? 
B.10: Uh-huh, and everything in between, yeah, in most states there's nothing to regulate them, 
A.11: And, 
B.12: and so, -
A.13: whenever they are they seem to regulate the good toward the bad instead of bad toward the good. 
B.14: Right. By trying to get them to conform to concern standards they, uh, kind of, uh, eliminate a lot of the, uh, -
A.15: Better situations. 
B.16: Yeah. The, the, uh, - what am I trying to think of that, <<pause>> - not the imagination but the creativity in, in the situation - and so, -
A.17: Yeah, yeah that's, that's very well phrased. 
B.18: <Laughter>.
A.19: Uh, so, have you ever used outside child care? 
B.20: No, I haven't. We've had like people come in and baby-sit for an hour or two but I've never had, um, -
A.21: Real day care. 
B.22: Right. She's, she's not even a year yet, so,
A.23: Uh -- 
B.24: we haven't been in, you know, a lot of need yet. 
A.25: -- our step daughter's ten now -- 
B.26: Uh-huh. 
A.27: -- and most of the day care has been provide for by Grandma. 
B.28: I like that situation, that's usually real good <laughter>. 
A.29: But, quite honestly what I believe to be the best day care situation was while we lived up, - the Pass of Woodland Park --
B.30: Uh-huh. 
A.31: -- there was, uh, ex-school teacher that, uh, did a small amount of before school and after school, you know, kindergartners, or half dayers --
B.32: Uh-huh. 
A.33: -- in her home <<pause>> and they would read and play, 
B.34: Have a relative struct-, a structured, 
A.35: seem to be, -
B.36: activities and not just, you know, stick them in a corner and say you're on your own. 
A.37: Uh, yeah, and, uh, despite our beliefs, she was, uh, one of the more, uh, <<pause>> Charismatic Christian faiths -- 
B.38: Uh-huh. 
A.39: -- and it worked out wonderfully. 
B.40: Yeah. I know that, uh, that I guess if you have the opportunity to pick and choose and you've got the time and that, uh, I don't know if the resources are the proper term, you know, just the, the know, knowledge of who's a available, then you could probably find some really good care. 
A.41: Uh, yeah, but I don't know that it would be state approved. 
B.42: That's true. You can get somebody maybe willing to baby-sit but actual, you know, that's sometimes different, done on a different scale. I have even considered, you know, baby-sitting myself, I have a teaching degree, and, uh, thought well, you know, I could structure and then for one reason or other decided not to, but I think if you take more than three children in, - well, that was how it was this Virginia, we've recently moved here to Texas, but in Virginia I think if you take more than three children in on more than a several hours a day bases you have to be licensed. 
A.43: I, now I don't know what the current Texas laws are but I, but I do know that the license doesn't seem to, uh, <<pause>> guarantee quality. 
B.44: Yeah, a lot of times you might just need to go now and feel, file for it just like a business. You may not have to prove any type of qualification for it I don't, -
A.45: Uh, now here I believe that child care meets, by in large, certain standards for, uh, balanced food, if they provide food, cleanliness, <<pause>> and levels of supervision --
B.46: Uh-huh. 
A.47: -- levels being defined as number of working adults for number of children -- 
B.48: Uh-huh. 
A.49: -- but, -
B.50: That's, uh, kind of a minimum there that you're getting. Your covering basic care there and not all the extras that most people would like to see done with there children, you know, like the educational activities, the supervised play and so forth. 
A.51: Yeah, uh, my wife is, uh, agnostic and I'm, uh, a backsliding Presbyterian -- 
B.52: <Laughter> I like that term <laughter>. 
A.53: -- and, uh, <<pause>> get, I really believe that this Charismatic care, or the Charismatic belief when emphasized on care, or semi Charismatic I might say --
B.54: Uh-huh. 
A.55: -- was quite good. 
B.56: Yeah, it was a good influence for your daughter, uh. 
A.57: Yes, very -- 
B.58: Well, that's good. 
A.59: -- and, and, uh, <<pause>> the care is what I guess you should emphasize in the term child care instead of the child. 
B.60: Uh-huh. Yeah, a little bit of love and, and attention is what most of them need. You know, even if it's not a real educated program you can have good educational program and, and, -
A.61: And not have any care. 
B.62: Right. And, and that's not certainly what you want for your child or what you would give your child yourself and so, -
A.63: And I'm not sure that really child care per se should instill any education per se. Do you know had a I'm saying? 
B.64: Well, even educated play, uh, supervised play, can teach without, - and I'm not saying talking about sitting down and teaching them math or, or, or something like that but just kind of promoting social skills and, uh, uh, you know, like my, my child that, - she want be an only child for long, but, you know, she was an only child, or maybe your daughter,
A.65: Proper interface. 
B.66: not having, - yeah, yeah, just, -
A.67: It's just, just correctness of, of <<pause>> social skills, if you will. 
B.68: Right, those basic things that, uh, they would, that, you know, you would be a little bit of, uh, I don't know if manners is a good term or not but,
A.69: <Breathing>. 
B.70: you know, dealing with other through proper mannerisms and politeness and so forth, you know, that sort of thing, you'd want your child to learn that, from the experience of someone else, certainly you wouldn't want your child's day care person to yell at them and scream at them and say do this, do that, you know, you'd want them it promote politeness and niceness, you know, the things that you would want any child to learn and,
A.71: <Breathing>. 
B.72: the reason, - that's done through example, you know, not an actual sit down learn situation so, -
A.73: Uh, yeah, uh, it's a very broad issue. 
B.74: Uh-huh, it is <laughter>. 
A.75: And, <<pause>> you know, it's a shame but most people doing, child care earn almost no money. They operate at, you know, - the owner of the chi-, of a, you know, a large child care facility - now,
B.76: Uh-huh. 
A.77: we're not talking somebody that does six kids,
B.78: Uh-huh. 
A.79: in their home or three or whatever. 
B.80: Somebody that doesn't really put a lot of overhead whatever into it. You mean somebody that has an actual establishment. 
A.81: Right. 
B.82: Yeah. 
A.83: Their employees earn almost nothing. 
B.84: Yeah. I know I, I did that for summer <laughter> so I can, I can vouch for that <laughter>. 
A.85: And that's really, really a shame too because, <<pause>> - do you and your husband both work. 
B.86: No, just he does I'm, I'm here during the day with her. 
A.87: Well, that's wonderful if, if you can make it that way. 
B.88: Well, we, we decided to, - we live on a lesser budget so that we have - that, that's more important to us, you know, as, as, uh, there may come a time when I will be working again, you know, but right now that's what we've chosen and we wanted to have several, we got her and we've got another on the way,
A.89: Well, 
B.90: and maybe another,
A.91: like I said,
B.92: one soon after that, so <laughter>, -
A.93: that's grand if, if you can pull it off -- 
B.94: Right. 
A.95: -- but more and more we're being forced into a situation, we as Americans are being forced into a situation, where you've got to have, -

A.1: We're supposed to talk about the Middle East Crisis,
B.2: Oh, okay. 
A.3: and should we be involved and, uh, what's it going to cost us in the long run. 
B.4: Okay. 
A.5: Are you ready? 
B.6: I guess so. 
A.7: The Middle East Crisis should we be there? 
B.8: Oh, dear that's a hard one. That's really hard for me because, uh, you know, I really, I have a son that's sixteen and I think, you know, eventually, you know, he'll be of, of drafting age. And I think gosh, do I want him to go and yet I'm proud to be an American and I know that we have a country that, you know, people would give anything to live in, a lot of people anyway because we have so many wonderful things that they don't have. And yet, I don't know whether I'd be willing to give his life for, for this country and yet, and yet, I know that I, that, - and I, I, when I was in school it was always the tired, the tired excuse that we went to war to save us against communism but I'm not sure that that's the reason anymore. I mean, not sure that communism is, is as strong as it once was. And I'm not sure that, that that's the reason why we're, like we were in Vietnam supposedly so. 
A.9: Well, you realize why we were in the Middle East. Why we invaded Iraq, why we were --
B.10: Well, with the, -
A.11: -- in Saudi, why we attacked Kuwait and we we're, why we are still fighting Iraq. 
B.12: Well, it's because of oil isn't it? 
A.13: No. I really believe it's because, - I think it has something to do with oil, don't get me wrong. 
B.14: Uh-huh. 
A.15: But Saddam is, Saddam is a madman. 
B.16: Oh, yeah. I agree with that. 
A.17: Anyone that would use chemical weapons to fight his own people, -
B.18: Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, he's, uh, a bad person, very definitely, 
A.19: And, 
B.20: yeah. 
A.21: obviously, that has something to do with it. 
B.22: Oh, sure. 
A.23: And, and if, you know, - I can see that he was in Kuwait -- 
B.24: Uh-huh. 
A.25: -- Kuwait was the nonaggressor -- 
B.26: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
A.27: -- and the Saudis are our allies. We have several treaties and several alliances with the Saudis that range back for probably forty years. 
B.28: Yeah, many years. 
A.29: You know they've been our friends through thick and thin. 
B.30: Uh-huh. 
A.31: They,
B.32: Well, 
A.33: were at the Saudi border.
B.34: Uh-huh. 
A.35: And ready to storm into Saudi. Shouldn't we try and help our friends? 
B.36: Certainly, but what at, at what cost, you know, that's the, uh, the thing, it came out, it came out wonderfully supposedly I mean everything is -- -
A.37: What did we lose,
B.38: -- and we won. 
A.39: forty-one Americans, 
B.40: Yeah, 
A.41: lives. 
B.42: and that, that's wonderful but what if, if that wasn't the case. What if we would have lost thousands of young men. Would that, would it have been too much of a price to pay for that? I don't know. See, and I think there are a lot of things that we don't know but,
A.43: Oh, 
B.44: that, -
A.45: of course,
B.46: the American people, -
A.47: our government is full of liars, thieves, and crooks. 
B.48: Oh, sure. Well, and there's a lot,
A.49: And that's, 
B.50: that we, -
A.51: our own fault because we elected them. 
B.52: Yeah. I think that's true but I think there's a lot that we, the public doesn't need to know. I think there's some things we shouldn't know just for nation-, national security sake. And I, you know, I think if we did know I think there would be a lot more chaos than there is because I don't, I don't think people could handle it. So I think there are things that we should not know, the masses shouldn't know but I also agree that there are a lot of crooks and liars too. 
A.53: You know, it's, uh, - I went on jury duty here not long back. 
B.54: Uh-huh. 
A.55: And uh, one of the guys that was on the jury they were asking him if, if you could believe a lawyer or if a,
B.56: Uh-huh. 
A.57: lawyer's reputation was so tainted that he couldn't be believed and one guy being selected snickered and couldn't keep his head up, you know, 
B.58: Uh-huh. 
A.59: and the guy said, Well, can you share it with us what you, what you find so funny? He says, Well, I already told you my sons a lawyer. He said that when he graduated, the day after his bar examine --
B.60: Uh-huh. 
A.61: -- there in Houston. 
B.62: Uh-huh. 
A.63: He told him, Dad, you know how to tell when a lawyers lying to you? His lips are moving. 
B.64: Oh, my gosh <laughter>. Oh. 
A.65: And ninety percent of all politicians,
B.66: Uh-huh. 
A.67: and lawyers, -
B.68: Uh-huh. Have a lawyer background, yeah. Have a law background, you're right. 
A.69: So by definition all lawyers and politicians are liars. The fact that they take our money and don't do what we think is right makes them thieves. 
B.70: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. 
A.71: So what's it going to cost us in the long run there in Saudi? Are we going to lose more lives there? 
B.72: See, and I don't know, I don't know I can't tell the future that's what scares me so much about it. I mean I thought the war was going to go on and on. I really was surprised when it ended so quickly and, -
A.73: Well, we hit them with more in one month than we used in three years, the last three years of Vietnam. 
B.74: I know. Yeah. 
A.75: And whenever you strike on open terrain with that sheer volume --
B.76: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 
A.77: -- there's nothing they can do about it. 
B.78: Right. 
A.79: You know it's not like we <breathing> threw eight aircraft over there all by ourselves and said this is wrong. 
B.80: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 
A.81: We were there, the Brits were there. 
B.82: Right. 
A.83: The French were there. This is with U N backing -- 
B.84: Uh-huh. 
A.85: -- <Breathing> and to some level even Russia was behind. 
B.86: Uh-huh. Right, they were. 
A.87: So honestly if there is, was a well perceived war, world wide this was it. 
B.88: Oh, sure. Sure. 
A.89: But what I can't understand is then many of the Kuwaiti youth didn't fight, wouldn't fight. 
B.90: Uh-huh. 
A.91: It's okay for us to go extend our youth's lives like so much water in the desert. 
B.92: Yeah. Yeah. 
A.93: And it's not their job to fight for their own land. 
B.94: Yeah, that is very <laughter> it's very strange. Uh, and yet, you know, see that's another thing that, that's difficult for Americans, their culture is so much different than ours, you know, I've heard from many people that we could not even begi-, begin to understand how they feel about things because their values and their perceptions are so much different than ours and, um, they just don't think the same way we do. Their culture is completely different and almost opposite. 
A.95: And really from all I can indica-, from all indications the Iraqi beliefs, if you will, are more similar to our own. 
B.96: Uh-huh. 
A.97: <Laughter>.
B.98: that's true. 
A.99: And the Kuwaitis aren't even helping rebuild their own country. The Kuwaiti young won't rebuild anything. They won't work. 
B.100: Uh, I didn't realize that. 
A.101: Yeah, it was on the news last night. 
B.102: Oh, my word. 
A.103: The, uh, U S Army is doing it all. 
B.104: Uh, yeah. See and that's another question you have to ask, is this our job? Is, are we, should we still be there even, you know? I don't know the answers to those questions. I think they're tough and I think, you know, it's, - I don't know that anybody knows the answers. I think they know what they believe but I'm not sure they really are one hundred percent sure. 
A.105: Well, they talked to one Kuwaiti woman yesterday. 
B.106: Uh-huh. 
A.107: And her biggest concern in life was that she couldn't get a housekeeper. 
B.108: You're kidding. That's unreal. 
A.109: And, do you have a housekeeper? 
B.110: No <laughter>. No, and don't plan on having one either, ever. 
A.111: Well, I wouldn't mind having one. 
B.112: Oh, I'd love to have one but, you know. -
A.113: But, you know, I'd like to make sure that I have a job tomorrow first. 
B.114: Sure. Sure. That's right. That's right. 
A.115: It, it astound, you realize that the Kuwaiti government gives every Kuwaiti man, woman, and child money. 
B.116: Uh, no. I wasn't, I didn't, wasn't ] aware of that, no. 
A.117: For nothing. 
B.118: For doing nothing, yeah. 
A.119: For noth-, for, for doing nothing. For sitting on there kiesters. 
B.120: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 
A.121: Oh, that ought to give their programming trouble shouldn't it? 
B.122: <Laughter>.
A.123: Uh, they do nothing. They hand them money each year and they're part of, -

A.1: Okay. Um, I don't have any, I guess, definite views about elderly care. Um, the first thing that comes to mind is kind of those horror movies that you see,
B.2: Uh-huh. 
A.3: where elderly people are abused and things like that. 
B.4: Yeah. 
A.5: I think that's one thing that I would look at if I was putting my grandmother or my mother, uh, in some sort of home. The first thing that I would look at would be their history.
B.6: Right. 
A.7: As far as any court cases that came out of there, um, the history of, you know, their doctors, um, their nurses, and things like that. 
B.8: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. I, um, - a group that I'm a part of goes once a month to a, um, they call it the Heritage House. 
A.9: Uh-huh. 
B.10: It's, it's a nursing home for elderly people. 
A.11: Uh-huh. 
B.12: And this particular one has people that are in pretty bad shape. 
A.13: Uh-huh. 
B.14: A lot of them have had, um, limbs amputated, or, um, have serious illnesses.
A.15: Uh-huh. 
B.16: You know, that kind of thing. And, um, I watched, - the interesting thing was I watched this particular one change hands. It started out just being a terrible place for the people, 
A.17: Uh-huh. 
B.18: and then a new company bought it,
A.19: Uh-huh. 
B.20: and came in and remodeled the whole place. 
A.21: Uh-huh. 
B.22: Hired new nurses and, uh, just really, just redid it, you know. 
A.23: Just out of curiosity, what, what kinds of things were they doing when they were considered a bad place? 
B.24: Well, to me, it was dirty, for one thing. 
A.25: Uh-huh. 
B.26: Uh, when you would walk in, the smell was just,
A.27: Uh-huh. 
B.28: awful. The, you know, the floors, you could just,
A.29: Uh-huh. 
B.30: if you're walking on them, feel how filthy they were. 
A.31: Uh-huh. 
B.32: Um, there were a lot of people just kind of up and down the halls laying in their beds hollering and, you know, crying, 
A.33: Oh, my goodness. 
B.34: Of course, I don't know how many of them were, you know, not in their right mind.
A.35: Uh-huh. 
B.36: or how many were, -
A.37: In pain or something. 
B.38: Yeah. Yeah. I just really don't know, but I feel like they were neglected. 
A.39: Uh-huh. 
B.40: And, um, yeah, that was what I was going to say. It sounds like just neglect all over. 
A.41: Right. 
B.42: You know, neglect to cleanup. 
A.43: Right. 
B.44: I don't really think anyone was being, you know, cruel or, +
A.45: Uh-huh. 
B.46: or trying to mistreat them or anything. I just think they were not doing anymore, you know, than they had to do. And, um, just kind of letting everybody live in a not very good environment <laughter>. 
A.47: Uh-huh. 
B.48: But this new company came in and they, like I said, they remodeled the place. 
A.49: Uh-huh. 
B.50: And it smells nice when you walk in. And it looks nice. And they got like several new color T V's for the people,
A.51: Uh-huh. 
B.52: And redid the dining room, where they made it, you know, a lot more place for them to be. 
A.53: Uh-huh. 
B.54: They made a little patio area where they can go outside. 
A.55: That's great. 
B.56: Yeah. Just, you know, small things that make it seem a lot more homey. 
A.57: Yeah. 
B.58: Yeah. And it's like, it's a lot more like an apartment place instead of just, uh, -
A.59: I would, I would personally hate to know that my mother or grandmother or anyone is in a home like that. And my biggest fear would, that they would be, is that they would be lonely. 
B.60: Right. 
A.61: And I would like to know that there are, you know, just a lot of activities, like you said, you know, just putting a plant in a room,
B.62: Right. 
A.63: You know. Just makes, just brightens and, and, +
B.64: Right. 
A.65: and just makes them, just a little more active. Television, -
B.66: Uh-huh. 
A.67: They can go outside and, just to know that they're not, you know, laying in a room,
B.68: Right. 
A.69: looking at gray walls. You know,
B.70: Exactly. 
A.71: that, that's what would just really kill me. 
B.72: Yeah. 
A.73: I'd like to know that, you know, they have friends there, 
B.74: Right. 
A.75: and they have little conversations and things. 
B.76: Right. 
A.77: I'd like to know there's a lot of interaction and,
B.78: Yeah. 
A.79: maybe some kind of, of activity, little field trips or something. 
B.80: Yeah. 
A.81: I don't know how they would do that. But, -
B.82: Well, they, uh, - this place that we visit, it's really neat. They have, everyday, they have schedules of groups that come in. 
A.83: Uh-huh. 
B.84: And they will do bingo. Our group does a church service once a month. 
A.85: Uh-huh. 
B.86: And then other groups come in and do the services, you know, other Sundays,
A.87: Uh-huh. 
B.88: So that they have at least one service every Sunday. 
A.89: Uh-huh. 
B.90: So there are a lot of things. There are places that have a lot of things for them to do. But you really do have to kind of seek it out, you know,
A.91: Uh-huh. 
B.92: and make sure that it's not a place like this one was <laughter>. 
A.93: I didn't realize that there were groups that go in like that. That's,
B.94: Yeah. 
A.95: really neat. 
B.96: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's real nice. And, um, I know our church does it and there are a lot of other churches, and they are just like civic organizations,
A.97: Right. 
B.98: that do. -
A.99: Uh-huh. 
B.100: And, uh, I have other friends. It's kinds of neat, they take animals over and let the people pet them. 
A.101: Oh. 
B.102: Like they also have a dog that maybe needs a home and they will wash it all up,
A.103: Uh-huh. 
B.104: and make sure it's, it's a friendly animal,
A.105: Uh-huh. 
B.106: you know. And take it in and let, just let the old elderly people pet the dogs. 
A.107: That's great. 
B.108: Yeah. 
A.109: That will be something, you know, they would look forward to if they knew, you know, that the puppy is coming on Wednesday. 
B.110: Yeah. 
A.111: You know, that would be something to look for. That's really neat. 
B.112: Yeah. Yeah. 
A.113: That really is. 
B.114: I thought that was a real unusual thing,
A.115: Uh-huh. 
B.116: for someone to do. So, yeah, there's a lot that can be done. 
A.117: Uh-huh. 
B.118: It's just a matter of people not being lazy.
A.119: Right. 
B.120: And, you know, doing the best they can. Again, I don't know what I'd do if it was my own mother or grandmother,
A.121: Yeah. 
B.122: you know. 
A.123: Putting any of my family in an elderly home, to me would be the very last resort. 
B.124: Right. 
A.125: You know, it, um, - and I know it's hard for a lot of families if you're trying to, to work or trying to take care of your own family, 
B.126: Right, 
A.127: it's kind of hard to, to because an elderly person sometimes can be totally dependent,
B.128: Uh-huh. 
A.129: you know, on you. And I know that's hard sometimes and, +
B.130: Yeah. 
A.131: but it would really have to be a last resort,
B.132: Yeah. 
A.133: because that would just, I would feel so guilty. 
B.134: Yeah. Yeah. I would, too. 
A.135: I don't know. Unless I knew that they were somewhere, just really, I mean, just really great.
B.136: Yeah, right. 
A.137: You know, that they were really enjoying. 
B.138: Yeah. I know. I know what you mean. 
A.139: I don't know anyone personally that's in an elderly home. 
B.140: Yeah. Well, I have interesting conversations with a lot of these people because, um, many of them, of course, their minds are not good. 
A.141: Uh-huh. 
B.142: And so a lot them have told me exactly the same story, you know,
A.143: Yeah. Yeah. 
B.144: every time I visit them. 
A.145: Yeah. 
B.146: They'll reminisce about childhood,
A.147: Uh-huh. 
B.148: and tell me something that they did and then the next time I go it's the same thing, you know, 
A.149: Uh-huh. 
B.150: that, - just somebody to listen to them.
A.151: Yeah. 
B.152: Uh, just seems to make them really feel good. 
A.153: Nod your head and smile at them. 
B.154: Right. I'll tell you the people I feel the sorriest for, there's a guy at this particular one I go to,
A.155: Uh-huh. 
B.156: that I think that he's really an intelligent person, 
A.157: Uh-huh. 
B.158: but he has cerebral palsy so bad that he just cannot communicate. 
A.159: Uh-huh. 
B.160: And, um, he's blind and he has seizures, you know, 
A.161: Uh-huh. 
B.162: I mean, he's just like in a world of his own, and yet he wants so much,
A.163: Right. 
B.164: to be around people. And if you come over to him, if he can touch your hand, he'll grab it and kiss it. 
A.165: Oh. 
B.166: Oh, and he's always got a smile. I mean, he really tries to, brighten up your life. Oh, it's just amazing. 
A.167: Oh. 
B.168: But he can't say anything. He can just kind of make noises. 
A.169: That's something, that, if I had to work in an elderly home, I don't think I could do it. 
B.170: Yeah. 
A.171: Like I, I would really like to be a teacher, 
B.172: Yeah. 
A.173: But I don't think I could do it. Because I'm very, very emotional. 
B.174: Me, too. 
A.175: And the minute, I mean, the minute something happens, -
B.176: Yeah. 
A.177: I cry on, I mean, Hallmark commercials. 
B.178: I know. 
A.179: That's just the end of me. 
B.180: I know. 
A.181: And so I mean something real life, I just, -
B.182: Uh-huh. 
A.183: I interview a lot of children, I'm an education reporter, 
B.184: Uh-huh. 
A.185: and I always go and do an education things. 
B.186: Uh-huh. 
A.187: I meet these kids who are, you know, dropping out of school left and right. 
B.188: Yeah. 
A.189: And all the sudden, they're in this program. They're making straight A's, they're going to graduate early, 
B.190: Uh-huh. 
A.191: and I'm just, I just want to hug them,
B.192: Yeah. 
A.193: and go, you are just fantastic. 
B.194: Yeah. 
A.195: And, you know, I could just imagine, you know, working in a home like that, 
B.196: Oh, yeah. 
A.197: And those people, they're so sweet and, +
B.198: Uh-huh. 
A.199: and so genuine,
B.200: Uh-huh. 
A.201: You know, and all they want is just for everything to be happy, 
B.202: Yeah. 
A.203: and you know,
B.204: Yeah. 
A.205: And so that would probably just tear me apart. 
B.206: Oh, it does. 
A.207: I mean, in a good way, but,
B.208: Yeah. 
A.209: You know. -
B.210: Yeah, it is, it's really hard and, +
A.211: Uh-huh. 
B.212: But one of the neatest things I think though is we always take our kids. I have a three year old and a six year old, 
A.213: Uh-huh. 
B.214: and they, um, have gotten comfortable being around these people,
A.215: Uh-huh. 
B.216: because they've always gone with us, 
A.217: Uh-huh. 
B.218: and the people love them. 
A.219: I'm sure. 
B.220: And they want the children, you know, to hug them or hold their hand and, so far, my kids will do it. Just real easily, 
A.221: Uh-huh. 
B.222: and I think it's because they've gone since they were real little, 
A.223: Yeah. 
B.224: and they've never been afraid. But that's something, - to me children,
A.225: Uh-huh. 
B.226: you know, need to, - people need to take groups of children,
A.227: Right. 
B.228: <Laughter> Because the kids just brighten up their lives. 
A.229: Yeah. 
B.230: As we walk through the, the lobby they'll all say, bring her here. I want to see her <laughter>. I would love to hold her. 
A.231: And children, - I mean, usually a of elderly people like to, they like to, uh, share their experiences with the, +
B.232: Uh-huh. 
A.233: with the younger children. They'll be telling them all kinds of stories.
B.234: Yeah. 
A.235: that they don't even know what they mean. 
B.236: That's true. 
A.237: You know, they feel like they've lived life so they need to share it. 
B.238: Yeah. 
A.239: And I'm sure I'll be like that, too. 
B.240: Well, me, too. 
A.241: Yeah. 
B.242: Yeah. It's quite an experience. 
A.243: But, that's great. I didn't know there were such groups. 
B.244: Yeah. Yeah there are. And, and, uh, it really helps those people, I think. 
A.245: Uh-huh. 
B.246: But, like you said, I'd really have a lot of second thoughts before I put any of my own family members there. 
A.247: Yeah. Yeah. 
B.248: It would be a last resort. 
A.249: And I would hate it if anyone put me in one. 
B.250: Oh, I know. I'm always afraid like, oh, no, what if I lose my mind. 
A.251: Yeah. 
B.252: Am I going to end up in a place like that <laughter>? 
A.253: <Laughter> Somebody take care of me. 
B.254: Yeah, that's right. 
A.255: Okay. 
B.256: Well. -
A.257: Okay, well, nice to talk to you. 
B.258: Yeah. You, too, Tonya . Thanks for calling. 
A.259: Uh-huh. Bye-bye. 
B.260: Bye. 

B.1: Okay. 
A.2: Great. Um, currently, I'm not doing a whole lot of exercise in any type of program. 
B.3: Huh-uh. 
A.4: I'm mainly do a lot of walking. I have a son that's a little bit overweight and, um, the best thing we found to do with him is to walk around. So my wife and I kind of take turns. At one time I had a fairly regular exercise program. But, in the last couple of months I've changed to a new residence and everything has gotten kind of turned a little upside down. All this space that normally would be dedicated <laughter> towards the,
B.5: Yeah. 
A.6: exercise area, is covered in boxes. 
B.7: Um, what did you do when you did exercise regularly? 
A.8: Well, I had, uh, a little routine that I did for warm ups. 
B.9: Huh-uh. 
A.10: And then I did some very mild, say, light weight lifting. Nothing, - I'm not trying to make big bulging muscles,
B.11: Huh-uh. 
A.12: just trying to try and stay as firm as I can stay in my old age <laughter>. 
B.13: Yeah <laughter>. Um, right now, um, I try when it's nice out, - it's been raining a lot this spring, but I try to, uh, - I have a bicycle and I like to cycle a lot. And, uh, my husband and I, we have entered a few rallies, that's pretty popular in Texas, I don't know,
A.14: Huh-uh. 
B.15: if it's up north, but every weekend a small town will sponsor a rally and thousands of people come with their bikes and ride over hilly terrain for thirty or forty miles, which that's a lot of fun. 
A.16: Huh-uh. 
B.17: Um, so we try to ride during the week to try and stay in shape for that. And, um, T I, where I work has, uh, a fitness center so a lot of time after work or maybe on the weekends, we'd go over there and lift weights and do the tread mill, and, um, they have stair masters and all kinds of new machine, that are fun to ride and workout on. So I try to, I'm trying to stay in shape on a regular basis. I used to, uh, get into it and get out of it based on my schedule, so I'm trying to stay in shape on a regular basis now, but it's a big commitment. We don't have any kids yet so, that's a lot of, part of it. 
A.18: Yeah. That's a plus. Oh, I have a total of five children. I have three left living at home. 
B.19: Huh-uh. 
A.20: And they do take up a big part of my, uh, my evening and weekend. 
B.21: Yeah. 
A.22: And it's tough being a parent and doing all the things that you should do for yourself, too. 
B.23: Yeah. 
A.24: It's something they don't tell you about when you're growing up. Yes, when you become a parent most of your life is going to be dedicated to your children. 
B.25: Huh-uh <laughter>. 
A.26: <Laughter>.
B.27: That's why, they, uh, really stress, at T I, they really stress, staying in shape, like stay in fit, overall fitness, you know, no smoking and all that. But it's hard to find, uh, an actual exercise regimen that work, for you, you know, because like I know a lot of people that cycle, they take their kids behind them on the bikes and I don't know if that would work for me because I don't know I wouldn't want to pull a kid over hilly terrain. But it's really hard to find something that works, and, you know, to find time to do it and stay committed to it like three days a week or whatever. I think maybe walking or running would probably work because it doesn't take much time and much money or whatever. 
A.28: Yeah. 
B.29: Yeah. 
A.30: You have to, what I found from my experience is you have to budget time for yourself. 
B.31: Huh-uh. 
A.32: And you can use what ever rationale you want, but basically, the healthier you stay, the longer you'll live. 
B.33: Right. 
A.34: And, uh, you know, if I spend a little bit of time each day or a little bit of time every other day doing something for me to make me live longer, well, then I'll around a lot longer, 
B.35: <Laughter>
A.36: And those people that I'm taking the ten minutes or twenty minutes away from now, well, you know, get the enjoyment of me, years past where I would have been if I wouldn't have taken it. 
B.37: Huh-uh. 
A.38: If you kind of think of it as a rationale like that, it works out fine. 
B.39: Yeah. Um, I've been learning a lot lately about, um, - I've been reading a book by Kenneth Cooper, I don't know if you're familiar with him -- 
A.40: Huh-uh. 
B.41: -- he was the pioneer of aerobics and all of health really. He's, he's, kind of, he's pretty much the innovator of the whole exercise thing. Um, he was talking about the three things you could, that cause aging smoking are inactivity, and what was the other one, I think was, yeah, obesity. If you can control those three areas, then are you going to live longer, you know, cause those are risk factors, so anyway,
A.42: Yeah. 
B.43: it's kind of a tip. 
A.44: Oh, I've done a lot of study over the years and I found that probably one of the worst things that anybody can ingest is chlorinated water. 
B.45: Really <laughter>. 
A.46: Yeah. Um, the research that I've done - and I've actually been in the drinking watering business since eighty-three. 
B.47: Huh-uh. 
A.48: And, it's amazing, that, uh, you know, prior to like nineteen-twenty there were very few heart attacks. 
B.49: Huh-uh. 
A.50: There were none prior to nineteen-hundred. Well, in nineteen-three they started experimenting with chlorinating the water. In nineteen-thirteen most of the major cities, - and after that we, +
B.51: .
A.52: we started having the hearts attacks and, uh, Dr. Price wrote a book CORONARY, CHOLESTEROL, AND CHLORINE. You can usually find it in a health food store. 
B.53: Huh-uh. 
A.54: I know they had it in health food stores in Plano, I used live in Plano. 
B.55: Dr. Price? 
A.56: Uh, Dr. Price, yeah. And it's amazing, he makes the, you know, - it's a very small book and the guys very opinionated, um, but he makes a very good case against chlorine. There were no heart attacks before we started using it and he points out that people in, uh, England and, uh, - or even diets that quadrupled the amount of cholesterol that we're ingesting now, -
B.57: Huh-uh.
A.58: and they weren't dropping dead of heart attacks. 
B.59: That's really interesting. 
A.60: Yeah. He did some experiments on chickens whose arteries are very similar to ours.
B.61: Huh-uh. 
A.62: And, uh, proved that ingestion of chlorine causes arteriosclerosis, which is the,
B.63: Yeah. 
A.64: clogging of the arteries. And, uh, you know, he's, there's been a lot of reports since then. This whole thing about, - first it was stress, then it went to cholesterol, and now they're saying what's cholesterol, well there's good cholesterol and there's bad cholesterol. 
B.65: Huh-uh. 
A.66: You know, it's amazing what he points out in that book and, in fact, he, everyone there was a toxicologist for the Environmental Protection Agency, who did work back in nineteen eighty-six, who wrote a letter to Dr. Price in nineteen eighty-seven. And in this letter he praised Dr. Price for the work he did back in the sixties on this and said that E P A had been doing experiments on nonhuman primates and proving that ingestion of chlorine causes arteriosclerosis. And, E P A never published that report. 
B.67: And what's the name of this book again? 
A.68: CORONARY, CHOLESTEROL AND CHLORINE. 
B.69: I'll have to remember that. 
A.70: Yeah. 
B.71: That will be very interesting. My husband wants to go into medical school and be a neurosurgeon so, he's really interested in the heart. 
A.72: Yeah. 
B.73: And he's, in fact, he's a, well, heart, too, - he's, uh, he's done a lot of research on like how your heart reacts to exercise <laughter>. Sorry, he made me laugh. Um, so anyway, -
A.74: Yeah. There is, there is a lot of good information out there, uh, about health. And a lot of the, a lot of the myths they've been passing around, people are starting to realize aren't true. 
B.75: Yeah. 
A.76: I mean, I'm all for having a diet high in fiber and all that, because that's, that's good for you, 
B.77: Huh-uh. 
A.78: uh, but to believe some of the things, you know, - and I don't think anybody should be going out there and eating a high fat diet, but to think that solely, alone is going to cause something like arteriosclerosis is, is just hard to believe. 
B.79: If you get a chance read Dr. Cooper's book on controlling cholesterol.
A.80: Huh-uh. 
B.81: That's a real good, um, - he talks about that. Talks about high risk factors and heart disease and all that. 
A.82: Yeah. I actually eat pretty much anything that I want. 
B.83: Huh-uh. 
A.84: And I've had my cholesterol checked and, uh, a few times and I've never been above, like, you know, one-hundred and fifty, 
B.85: Huh-uh. 
A.86: never. And, uh, uh, I mean, I, -
B.87: You have a good ratio of good to bad.
A.88: Um, 
B.89: Cholesterol. 
A.90: Well, what they tell me, - but, I mean, you know, everything is like within five to ten percent and all that kind of thing <laughter>. You know, they leave themselves wide open so they can't be sued. 
B.91: Yeah. 
A.92: But, uh, we've, - I work at the T I site in Hunt Valley, Maryland. 
B.93: Oh, really. 
A.94: Yeah and we've had a few of the health fairs up here and, um, you know, I've always come out aces. 
B.95: That's good. 
A.96: You know, I'm not really that big on watching what I eat, but I do eat, you know, some health cookies that are high in fiber,
B.97: Yeah. 
A.98: low in fat and all that kind of stuff. But, I mean as far as really being concerned about ingesting too much chlorine, I'm not, cholesterol, I'm not worried about it. <<Tape fades.>> 

A.1: Yeah, I think, um, this is a tough subject because, uh, when you come from two different parts of the country, uh, the political views are really different. I, uh, I, I guess I've had to discuss a number of what might be considered controversial issues, 
B.2: Uh-huh. 
A.3: I guess like, like they're nothing, I guess, nothing is as awful as abortion but like gun control and, uh, day care an things like that, - and there are some very different views, uh, of the people connected with the program which I thought was really interesting, you know. 
B.4: Well, now you, you say two different parts of the country what, are, are, are you referring to yourself or, -
A.5: Yeah, well being in, in Baltimore see, - Maryland is, um, is sort of, um, is prob-, as, as a hub of liberalism <laughter>,
B.6: <Laughter>. 
A.7: you know, compared to the country, uh, you know, very, uh, in, in many ways, uh, very liberal - very somewhat to New England - though Pennsylvania and New York, uh, I, aren't actually as liberal, Maryland is a very liberal, uh, state so, so, where here we have, um, we have gun control laws we probably have some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation and most people in Maryland vote for that, you know. 
B.8: Uh-huh. 
A.9: So, it really is a different, um, -
B.10: Uh, well, of course, you talk gun controls down here in Texas and you're asking to be lynched. 
A.11: Yeah, that's, that's right talk to, - I had to talk about gun control with somebody and I talked with a woman who actually, you know, h-, had just purchased a gun that day,
B.12: Uh-huh. 
A.13: and was going target shooting, you know, and it was very different it was a whole,
B.14: <Throat_clearing>. 
A.15: different view. It's really, um, this has opened my eyes to thinking, you know, at one time I just sat here and thought, well, how can anybody believe that because I'd really never met people that did, and now, I talk to people that do. So that's, it's really interesting. 
B.16: Well, it's very true, now I'm a, uh, New Yorker by birth. 
A.17: Uh-huh. 
B.18: Although I claim Florida as my home now, uh, I have two sons living down there but I also have two sons living elsewhere,
A.19: Uh-huh. 
B.20: one in Tennessee, one in Mississippi. But I lived in Te-, in Florida for ten years and I kind of like it down there, but they had a gun control law which went a little bit too far. 
A.21: Yeah. 
B.22: I think uh, <breathing> - well in your words, --
A.23: <laughter>
B.24: -- they were a little bit too liberal. <breathing> 
A.25: Yeah, isn't it funny. <laughter> 
B.26: I mean they p- they I believe if I'm correct I believe they permitted their carrying concealed weapons. 
A.27: Uh-huh. 
B.28: <inhaling> But
A.29: Uh. 
B.30: they uh sh- quickly did away with it. 
A.31: Yeah. 
B.32: I think in the next session they they uh modified it <breathing> but it's still legal to own <breathing> or possess weapons in uh uh Florida. 
A.33: Yeah well you can possess 'em here too but <breathing> They have to be they're registered and Uh, like
B.34: <breathing>
A.35: uh the the Brady Bill that's
B.36: <breathing>
A.37: currently being discussed nationally and whatever is very well supported here, in gun control avenues, and um.
B.38: The +
A.39: <lipsmack>
B.40: the one week uh seven day ] the delay -
A.41: You have the seven day waiting period. 
B.42: Uh huh. 
A.43: Yeah 
B.44: Well
A.45: that's +
B.46: I don't
A.47: uh that's -
B.48: mind that too much I'm I'm with the N R A myself. 
A.49: Yeah. 
B.50: And uh, uh Really the only objection we have <breathing> Is uh you you give a little and next thing you know somebody's trying to take more. 
A.51: Yeah that's true that's very true That's and that's the
B.52: <breathing>
A.53: way I guess most of the um the ]
B.54: <breathing>
A.55: political organizations work you know the same I know the abortion issue with right to life and right to choose -
B.56: Yeah. 
A.57: and and both of them
B.58: <breathing>
A.59: are both want the extent of extremes so that they don't give anything for a balance
B.60: <breathing>
A.61: you know there's there's always that difficulty 
B.62: <lipsmack>
A.63: <lipsmack>
B.64: Well
A.65: <breathing>
B.66: then tell me do you consider yourself a liberal? <breathing> 
A.67: Um I would say I'm probably liberal yeah 
B.68: Well let
A.69: yeah 
B.70: me ask you this then. 
A.71: Sure 
B.72: How is your what is your feeling about uh uh expressing yourself by burning the American flag? 
A.73: Well I'll tell you. I I think you know if they if they didn't give as much coverage to these idiots that burn the flag, it would never happen do you know what I mean? 
B.74: Huh. 
A.75: It's only because they make a big stink over it. But I I guess actually I believe that if somebody wants to burn the flag I guess that's their opportunity They're they're they're right in the sense of freedom of speech But I- I would never -
B.76: Well now wait a minute the- there 
A.77: Yeah. 
B.78: you just said it. 
A.79: <lipsmack>
B.80: It's their right by freedom of speech? What does speech have to do with
A.81: Yeah. 
B.82: burning a flag? 
A.83: <breathing> Well it's free- -
B.84: <breathing>
A.85: that they - I think the idea of freedom of speech goes back to - and I uh uh the the <breathing> the whole aspect
B.86: <breathing>
A.87: of being able to display your uh your ]
B.88: <breathing>
A.89: ideas you know - the what the country stands on America stands on is that they can do that <breathing> Uh, though I would never even consider
B.90: <breathing>
A.91: it in a million years to do it myself I I <breathing> I think uh you
B.92: <breathing>
A.93: know - but I I still - what the stan- flag stands for I guess to me is
B.94: <breathing>
A.95: that if somebody wants to voice their opinion or display their opinion openly and if that is a a way that they can <breathing> show
B.96: <breathing>
A.97: their opinion <breathing> then they should be allowed <lipsmack> uh -
B.98: Now uh Well I I still
A.99: Unless
B.100: go
A.101: the
B.102: back
A.103: burn +
B.104: to ... -
A.105: unless the actual fire hinders somebody's health and well-being you know but [ I I think that's I
B.106: <breathing>
A.107: guess that's I thin- that's my opinion Yeah I guess you feel differently. 
B.108: Then would you condone the burning of the capitol building? 
A.109: Uh,
B.110: <breathing>
A.111: no but I think that's that's uh it's that's taxpayer's money. <breathing> If somebody
B.112: <breathing>
A.113: buys their own flag and and burns it that's fine but that that's <breathing> you know that's destruction and of uh public
B.114: <breathing>
A.115: property and whatever. 
B.116: Uh, then you don't draw a line between public property and uh uh uh what a public uh symbol. 
A.117: No 
B.118: <breathing>
A.119: I don't know I guess the symbolism - oh I think what America stands for is the right to be able to disagree with the government. 
B.120: Uh yeah 
A.121: Uh I
B.122: but
A.123: think that's
B.124: here
A.125: what's
B.126: again
A.127: made
B.128: I go
A.129: democracy 
B.130: back to the second amendment You can disagree
A.131: Yeah. 
B.132: by s- b- freedom of speech
A.133: Uh-huh. 
B.134: which,
A.135: Yeah. 
B.136: has nothing to do with action. 
A.137: Well
B.138: Now
A.139: that's that's ]
B.140: I
A.141: true 
B.142: am +
A.143: Yeah 
B.144: I
A.145: <breathing> But
B.146: am ]
A.147: I think I I ]
B.148: adamantly
A.149: g- -
B.150: against that. 
A.151: Yeah <breathing> I I d- I guess
B.152: <breathing>
A.153: the idea you know they always keep saying like the framers. - <breathing> Um. <lipsmack> there uh one of the Republican the appointees for the jud- the judicial bench <breathing> - and
B.154: <breathing>
A.155: they always talk about they feel that this person believes in the framing of the constitution <breathing> what
B.156: <breathing>
A.157: the original framers the ideals the original framers set down. 
B.158: Uh-huh. 
A.159: And Um I believe that the idea of burning
B.160: huh. 
A.161: the flag is is in -
B.162: <breathing>
A.163: my understanding of how it was framed is that you this coun- the thing about this country is that you can disagree with its government and you can display
B.164: Yeah. 
A.165: that. 
B.166: Uh-huh. 
A.167: Uh, I - Yeah, I g- <breathing> - and and so that as a freedom of expression and speech and
B.168: <breathing>
A.169: whatever I I think that that's viable. <lipsmack> Um as long as it's your flag and and you've made your your point. I think. Yeah Because, realistically, like for you for you you don't think it's right <breathing> 
B.170: No. 
A.171: And I would never do it. I I love this country too much, and that symbol means a lot to me. 
B.172: Uh-huh. 
A.173: Um. But
B.174: <breathing>
A.175: I guess it's just one of those things where if they if that's what's something it's a need for them you know. 
B.176: Well here again we uh - even though you uh physically you agree with me
A.177: Yeah. 
B.178: you +
A.179: Yes. 
B.180: you wouldn't do it yourself. 
A.181: No. 
B.182: Nevertheless you maintain that it's it is the right of of any citizen
A.183: Right. 
B.184: to burn the symbol of their country. 
A.185: Yeah. Uh huh. 
B.186: Uh, um so long as it's their possession. Ok, you're you're that's <breathing> fine up to there except that uh, <breathing> th- what that flag symbolizes is uh uh is this country, 
A.187: Uh huh. 
B.188: and I used to know as a Boy Scout but all I remember was the red in the flag represented the blood that was shed to to create this country,
A.189: Yeah. 
B.190: and to maintain it. And, to me that's uh uh black eye to every man that ever p- uh carried a weapon or killed for his country. 
A.191: I agree there too. I agree with you there too. [ I I the um I I it's I find it you know personally disgusting But
B.192: Uh-huh. 
A.193: I don't think that I don't think that uh we
B.194: <breathing>
A.195: have a right to stop somebody from that you know the same I don't know - I guess I get I get uh all
B.196: It's +
A.197: mixed up inside. <breathing> when, -
B.198: It's very easy to do. 
A.199: Yeah it g- - when it's uh it's an emotional issue, <breathing> and you sit and you try and think
B.200: <breathing>
A.201: about it logically and and and you know you try to say to yourself <breathing> now emotionally this is a disgusting thing, uh but logically um -
B.202: <breathing>
A.203: even you know for instance, the pro life pro choice movement, uh you know <breathing> - I don't know anybody that actually supports abortion, but they
B.204: Uh 
A.205: would vote pro choice. 
B.206: Uh-huh. 
A.207: because you know That's just a disgusting thing you know somebody <breathing> - an abortion means it's somebody's in trouble and that it's an awful thing,
B.208: <breathing>
A.209: you know 
B.210: Well
A.211: but -
B.212: I think it should be permitted under certain circus- +
A.213: Yeah. 
B.214: circumstances. ]
A.215: <lipsmack> but
B.216: <breathing>
A.217: it that's uh that's what I mean, see, mo- - but but realistically when you think of it it just sounds like such an awful thing, and it evokes an emotional response. I think <breathing> that's the hardest thing, I don't know if I could ever be a judge, because
B.218: Uh-huh. 
A.219: some
B.220: Huh. 
A.221: things
B.222: Well
A.223: emotionally
B.224: tell me 
A.225: just
B.226: has
A.227: aren't
B.228: it
A.229: you know -
B.230: ever been decided when when is a uh fetus a human? 
A.231: No, no <breathing> 
B.232: <breathing>
A.233: I think the um <lipsmack> - sometimes I guess - what did I read recently the um th- the uh Christian uh point
B.234: <breathing>
A.235: is is always the point of well it's at conception but then um a friend of mine's a doctor and argues with others that conception is a biblical term. And there's no concept of conception in medicine or biology. 
B.236: Huh. 
A.237: <lipsmack> so then that so that throws out that idea makes it a religious discussion then. So it's - I
B.238: <breathing>
A.239: don't know. [ It's very it's it's uh you know It's a it's a topsy-turvy world and it's really something how um political
B.240: <breathing>
A.241: ideas and viewpoints within one country can vary so much and also within um <lipsmack>
B.242: Or
A.243: within ]
B.244: they -
A.245: a, -
B.246: on their o- within the own uh <breathing> society,
A.247: Yeah 
B.248: it can
A.249: and
B.250: vary. 
A.251: how Yeah how it'll sway from one e- one extreme to another. 
B.252: Uh-huh. 
A.253: <lipsmack> Uh I think that uh you know I I just read something I think in TIME magazine uh about um protest -

A.1: I'll let you go first. 
B.2: <TV> Well I think, I don't know how your schools work back there but we support our schools here with property taxes. 
A.3: Uh-huh. 
B.4: And the land owners or home owners are the ones that pay the school tax. So if you're renting a house or doing anything else, you're not actually contributing to the education of your children. And I think that's wrong, I think everybody should contribute to the education of their children even if they had to raise the sales tax by one percent then everybody going through the state would be supporting our education system. So, as it turns out, we don't really have a tremendous education system because they don't have the money they need to run it. 
A.5: Yeah, I, uh, I spent a couple, uh, years down in, uh, Plano, Texas. 
B.6: Uh-huh. 
A.7: And, uh, I was one of the home owners down there that got taxed to death,
B.8: Yeah. 
A.9: for the, uh, Plano, uh, school system. 
B.10: Yeah. 
A.11: And, uh, I, f-, you know, I know that Texas doesn't have a state tax, 
B.12: No, huh-uh. 
A.13: and so all the things come out of the, the property taxes, 
B.14: Yeah. 
A.15: and I was, uh, really shocked at the amount of taxes I ended up paying. I was, I was better off paying a state tax mo-, back in Maryland, where, <breathing> <laughter>, -
B.16: Yeah, yeah you would be. 
A.17: than I was, uh, paying the, uh, property tax down there. Uh, what they did in Maryland to get around that is they, uh, they developed a renters tax solely for the purpose of paying for the services,
B.18: Oh. 
A.19: that the renters were getting including the, uh, educational services. 
B.20: Yeah. 
A.21: And, uh, the tax was administered by, uh, the, uh, rental company that actually was managing the apartments so when, +
B.22: Oh. 
A.23: uh, long, long time ago, when I used to live in apartments, I would pay a rent payment every month and a tax payment every month. 
B.24: Gee. 
A.25: And the tax payment went to pay for the services that I was getting as a, a resident of that particular county. 
B.26: Yeah. 
A.27: And, uh, that's the way it worked. Here in Maryland we have, uh, a certain portion of your, your property taxes, uh, goes to education, 
B.28: Yeah. 
A.29: but also a portion of the state tax that you pay goes back into the county that you live in, to pay for the educational system. 
B.30: Oh, well that's pretty good. 
A.31: And so it, it works out nice, it, it, it makes it so that the, uh, whole county now, - I, I know the concept of counties in Texas is quite a bit different than it is here in Maryland, uh, like Collin County, uh, would only equal about maybe an eighth the size of Baltimore County, here in Maryland. 
B.32: Oh, yeah. 
A.33: I mean the, the counties are much larger. 
B.34: Yeah. 
A.35: You know, in the, the whole state of Maryland I believe there's only like, uh, fifteen counties. 
B.36: Gee whiz. 
A.37: And, so, uh, you know each county has their own school system an, and it works out real nice. Um, the, the flip side to this is, are we getting what we're paying for, 
B.38: Yeah. 
A.39: and I don't believe so, um. A lot of things have come to head recently and I heard a report because, of, uh, uh, the emphasis that the President was putting on education, you know,
B.40: Uh-huh. 
A.41: uh, him running as our education president and then finally a couple of years later getting around to doing something. 
B.42: Yeah. 
A.43: Um, they said since they imposed the federal regulations on education, in other words, they came up with this federalized system where everyone in the third grade would be taught basically the same thing. 
B.44: Yeah. 
A.45: And, then, at the end of, uh, school year they would be tested and then they go into the fourth grade and everybody in the fourth grade's basically taught the same thing. 
B.46: Yeah. 
A.47: So when they came up with these, this nationwide system of public schools, uh, they gave some figures out and since it's inception, uh, they've, the price has gone up per stu-, the prices paid by the federal government per student has been thirty-three percent. 
B.48: Yow. 
A.49: And so they're actually spending thirty-three percent, and that's real dollars, you know,
B.50: Yeah. 
A.51: adjusting it back to, to the days, you know, when it started, uh, probably, you know, seventy years ago. And what they've said is that we haven't had a thirty-three percent improvement in education. 
B.52: No, huh-uh. 
A.53: We've actually gone backwards. 
B.54: Well they say that Texas schools are some of the lowest in the nation. That our high school graduates can't even match the national average. 
A.55: Yeah. 
B.56: So, you know, our school system down here is no where near perfect but they keep complaining they don't have the money to do it. 
A.57: Yeah, well, they, they've been having some problems, uh, even here in, uh, like Baltimore City which is, a, a, pretty good ci-, goo-, good sized city. 
B.58: Yeah. 
A.59: Uh, they've been putting a lot of, uh, stress on it and of course, speaking of stress the teachers are all getting stressed out from trying to, you know, do everything they're supposed to do and of course they've, uh, been cutting the teachers salaries,
B.60: Oh, yeah. 
A.61: because they say we don't have the money to do it and,
B.62: Yeah. 
A.63: all the services are costing more money and, and everything, uh, but the-, uh, a lot of emphas-, now is being put on, you know, when children used to be taught, you know, like, uh, uh, each child is individual, 
B.64: Yeah. 
A.65: you know, they're not all the same and --
B.66: Yeah, they need to take things at their own speed. 
A.67: -- some students do horrible until like eighth grade, some do horrible, you know, until they get to like tenth grade, 
B.68: Yeah. 
A.69: and then all of a sudden everything clicks in, you know. And then there are some students that, you know, read well at five years old,
B.70: Uh-huh. 
A.71: and, you know, seem to excel. And so that, the, you know, one of the things I heard proposed on, uh, one of the public radio stations up here was that we should go back to teaching children at their own speed. Some ki-, -
B.72: Yeah, I think it'd be a lot better.
A.73: Yeah. 
B.74: You know each child has to learn at his own rate, they can't keep force feeding things to each other and, +
A.75: And, and, uh,
B.76: or, you know, at the kids. 
A.77: and on top of that they, they make the child feel inferior,
B.78: Uh-huh, because he can't do it. 
A.79: because he's not as good as another kid his same age. I mean, it's like, you know, that's ridiculous. 
B.80: And it's not that he can't do it, he just can't do it quite as fast, or, -
A.81: Yeah, and, uh, you know, I have, uh, I, I have five children total, 
B.82: Yeah. 
A.83: and I've got two out of the house already and I ha-, I have two that are in, uh, eighth grade this year. 
B.84: All right. 
A.85: And prior to their, um, - when I, when they were in elementary school they were identi-, identified as being slow. 
B.86: Yeah. 
A.87: And so they put them into special programs and then we actually held them back in fourth grade. 
B.88: Um. 
A.89: And it wasn't until the last two years, um, last year my, uh, - they're they're a set of twins,
B.90: Uh-huh. 
A.91: um, a boy and a girl. Last year the, the, uh, boy twin started doing real well. 
B.92: All right. 
A.93: And it, it, everything started to click in for him and he knew what he needed to do. Um, and this year it, it happened for, uh, for the daughter. 
B.94: Um, all right. 
A.95: She just has been,
B.96: Jumped on out there. 
A.97: really doing great this year and she has the right attitude towards school and everything. 
B.98: That's good. 
A.99: And I think it's just a matter of everybody has to find their own path. I remember when I was in school, I did horrible up until about, +
B.100: Yeah, I did too, up until ninth or tenth grade. 
A.101: yeah, about the seventh, eighth grade I, I, I started to, to come around and realize an, and basically I got interested in math,
B.102: Yeah. 
A.103: and, uh, never really did well in english but, you know once you got interested in something and things started to click in place then after that you take off. 
B.104: Yeah, and see when I was a kid growing up and going to high school if I wanted to take a little electronics course, I had a electronics course I could take, but we lived out in the country, 
A.105: Uh-huh. 
B.106: and we didn't have all that fancy stuff to worry about, you know, we had our auto shop out there and our ag shop and, +
A.107: Yeah. 
B.108: and, you know, we had just about every thing that we needed but they don't have it anymore. There's a lot of things that they don't do in school anymore. M-, our oldest boy goes to Lubbock High down here and they go to school four and half days a week, so.
A.109: Gee. 
B.110: That's pretty weird. 
A.111: Yeah it is, um, my children had a, uh, real culture shock, uh, when we lived in Plano, I guess, I don't know if you've heard about the Plano school district, but.
B.112: No. 
A.113: they're re-, uh, they really stress academics there. 
B.114: Uh-huh. 
A.115: And, uh, God, if your child is not an honor student, well then, <laughter> you're, something wrong with you as a parent. 
B.116: Gee. 
A.117: And tha-, that's kind of the way they are there. 
B.118: Yeah. 
A.119: And, uh, when we moved back to Maryland, um, I moved to a, uh, a, ]
Baltimore County which is a northern county in Maryland, 
B.120: Uh-huh. 
A.121: and it's basically a rural county, once you get above about the half way point. 
B.122: Yeah. 
A.123: And we lived, you know, in the northern part of the county. Uh, we went from a, uh, middle school in Texas that served fifty-five square blocks to a, uh, middle school in Maryland that served fifty-five square miles. 
B.124: Yeah. 
A.125: And it was just a complete culture shock,
B.126: <Laughter> I can imagine. 
A.127: because I mean, they, they're riding on the bus in the morning with, uh, other kids that, you know, are a sleep because they got up at three o'clock and were doing chores and,
B.128: Yeah that would be quite a shock. 
A.129: they <laughter> you know, - it's, - and they had, uh, ag, they had an ag course, uh, I forget what it was called, uh, but it goes along the, the lines of industrial arts, but it's, agricultural. 
B.130: Uh-huh. 
A.131: And where they had to raise a small animal. 
B.132: Oh, like, Four H then. 
A.133: Had to learn how to drive a tractor. 
B.134: All right. 
A.135: They actually had to g-, take a driving test on the tractor, I mean, they just couldn't believe this and it was great. They loved it. 
B.136: All right. 
A.137: I mean they really enjoyed the courses, um, and it, you know, it made school fun for them again because prior to that school was just a big pain, a drain. 
B.138: Yeah, just something you do everyday. 
A.139: Yeah, and it was, you know. It was like, ki-, kind of like the way we feel about going to work <laughter>. 
B.140: <Laughter> Yeah, yeah, just something I have to do everyday. 
A.141: But, uh, up here they seem to have made it, uh, a lot of fun for them and they, they seem to really enjoy it. 
B.142: That's good, our oldest boy went into school politics and made vice <TV> ... -

A.1: Okay. Um, I think that in this day and age everyone needs to have some sort of exposure to community service because it, it seems like - and I'm, I'm thinking of the com-, of community of people that are in jail now, I think that maybe if, if, if some of those people had gotten exposed to the community, gotten exposed to working with other people that some of the things that they did they would not have done because they, they understand people more, they understand helping people more, they understand the plight of people. 
B.2: That's true. Uh-huh. 
A.3: Uh-huh. 
B.4: I agree with you in the sense that, uh, I think that it's important for people to, uh, also share, give something of themselves -- 
A.5: Right. 
B.6: -- and, uh, I think that there's too much in the, in, in a way of self-gratification today, 
A.7: Uh-huh, uh-huh. 
B.8: and there's not enough sharing. 
A.9: Uh-huh. I would think that for, like people that are just filthy, filthy rich, -
B.10: Uh-huh. 
A.11: I think that they would benefit also in doing community service so that they can see and I'm, I'm speaking about people that are like born rich, 
B.12: Yeah. 
A.13: and that's all they know, 
B.14: Yeah. 
A.15: and I'm thinking that community service would help them, uh, just get a feel of what else is out there, how other people are living, you know, if they were to work in, in a, a, I don't know, a soup kitchen or something,
B.16: Yeah. 
A.17: they would understand how other people live and,
B.18: Uh-huh. 
A.19: uh, you know, on the same note if poor, if poorer people, <laughter> uh, are working to, to serve the community, I don't know, they probably have a better perspective of, of injust-, life itself. 
B.20: Yeah and I think the Peace Corps is great too,
A.21: Uh-huh. 
B.22: because, uh, it, you go to different countries and you see, - uh, in fact I saw an interview on T V the other night with, uh, Patrick Swayze, 
A.23: Uh-huh. 
B.24: and he's making a movie in, I think it's, uh, Calcutta or either India,
A.25: Uh-huh. 
B.26: somewhere where it's, it's a very poor, poor country, 
A.27: Uh-huh. 
B.28: and he said that people in the west, - he said since being there and I guess he's been there about six months, 
A.29: Uh-huh. 
B.30: he said that his whole idea of what's important has changed, 
A.31: Um. 
B.32: and he said that people have no idea, he said, of, of what human sacrifice is, you know, since being there he's, he's learned to, what it is to be poor and have nothing and yet those people have, uh, such, uh, a happy,
A.33: Uh-huh. 
B.34: uh, 
A.35: demeanor, yeah, uh-huh. 
B.36: Yeah, in, in other words they don't dwell on, on what they don't have. 
A.37: Right. 
B.38: they dwell on what they do have and they're happy with each other type of thing. 
A.39: That's great. 
B.40: He said that out here, he said that when he comes back he knows that it, it's ju-, completely changed his life. 
A.41: Uh-huh and I, I think that that, you know, - this, on the same note being - he was exposed to that and maybe he wasn't before, 
B.42: Right. 
A.43: and now he sees, 
B.44: Exactly. 
A.45: and I think that anybody that works in the, in some kind of service or for the community or something,
B.46: Uh-huh. 
A.47: they can see, you know. You don't see what, you don't, you can't know what you don't see,
B.48: Exactly right. 
A.49: you know, so and you have to experience some things. You know a lot of people know that people, that other people are poor but you, +
B.50: Yeah. 
A.51: they don't know what poor is,
B.52: Right. 
A.53: unless they actually see it and, you know, help or something. 
B.54: Uh-huh. 
A.55: Uh-huh. 
B.56: Well I, I know that it, that must be true especially if you do something along the lines of, uh, you know, helping them learn how to survive, how to plant,
A.57: Uh-huh. 
B.58: how to find water and I've seen so many,
A.59: Uh-huh. 
B.60: uh, extraordinary things on T V,
A.61: Uh-huh. 
B.62: that people have done working in the Peace Corps and how, you know, uh, the people of the community they worked in is so much better, 
A.63: Uh-huh. 
B.64: it's like one person can make a difference, 
A.65: Right. 
B.66: and I, I really believe that they can in something like that. 
A.67: There's something I, I've really be skeptical of, you know, you watch television you'll see the service announcement for children in other countries and,
B.68: Uh-huh. 
A.69: if you want to send like, you know, fifty cents a day,
B.70: Yes. 
A.71: or something like that - and you can help a child. 
B.72: Uh-huh. 
A.73: It's, I don't know, I guess it's just me but I don't know whether to trust that or not, I mean there are so many scams,
B.74: I know and how do yo-, -
A.75: and things going on, you know, I would love to help somebody, you know, 
B.76: Yeah. 
A.77: but I just, I can't bring myself to trust this, +
B.78: Right. 
A.79: this company who is trying to do this or whatever it is, you know, 
B.80: Uh-huh. 
A.81: just because people or so, I don't know, just today people are just so money hungry,
B.82: I know. 
A.83: that I think they would do anything, 
B.84: It's true, it really is. 
A.85: and so you don't know what they, -
B.86: It's the sad life I think today. 
A.87: Uh-huh. 
B.88: It's, uh, it's, it's not like it used to be even in, in the years of my growing up. 
A.89: Uh-huh. 
B.90: I mean I'm fifty-three years old, 
A.91: Uh-huh. 
B.92: and I have seen a town change from a town to a city and its,
A.93: Uh-huh. 
B.94: uh, people, you know, grow from a small town to a large town, 
A.95: Uh-huh. 
B.96: and you would think that more people would be better, you know share more,
A.97: Uh-huh. 
B.98: do more, you know, be more community oriented and all, 
A.99: Uh-huh. 
B.100: but if they just get more, uh, unto themselves kind of, -
A.101: More self-centered, uh-huh. 
B.102: right and, and it's not the sharing of,
A.103: Uh-huh. 
B.104: uh, a neighbor to a neighbor -- 
A.105: Uh-huh. 
B.106: -- and we would go out and not even lock our doors --
A.107: Uh-huh. 
B.108: -- and not even worry about it. 
A.109: But you can't do that today. 
B.110: But today, I mean, you know, it's like you wouldn't even think of doing that. 
A.111: Uh-huh. 
B.112: If you don't have bars on the window you're not even safe you know? 
A.113: Yeah. Even when, when I first moved to Dallas from New York, it seemed like Dallas was so open, you know, everybody left their,
B.114: Uh-huh. 
A.115: doors open, you just run,
B.116: Yeah. 
A.117: in the store, you leave your car running,
B.118: Yeah. 
A.119: you know, and this was only, uh, - well I guess it has been awhile, it's been almost ten years since I moved here. 
B.120: Yeah. 
A.121: And it's amazing now how much it's changed. I mean I don't go out I don't go, 
B.122: In Dallas I, -
A.123: outside at night, you know. 
B.124: I was going to say cause I, I heard I, in fact I was talking to someone from Dallas, uh, just last week and they was saying that, uh, - in fact it was this one girl particularly that worked for T I, 
A.125: Uh-huh. 
B.126: and she had gone overseas to Tokyo, 
A.127: Uh-huh. 
B.128: and she asked them there if there was some, anywhere that she shouldn't go because she was alone,
A.129: Uh-huh. 
B.130: you know being a girl from another country,
A.131: Uh-huh. 
B.132: and everything and she said they thought for a few seconds and they said, uh, no, there's nowhere that you can go that you would have to be afraid. 
A.133: Uh-huh. 
B.134: They said to her that even if she left her purse on the subway okay,
A.135: Uh-huh. 
B.136: that she would have that purse returned to her, this is how confident they were,
A.137: Wow. 
B.138: okay, with nothing missing -- 
A.139: Wow. 
B.140: -- okay, this is a foreign country -- 
A.141: Uh-huh. 
B.142: -- and you would think, you know, uh, being, uh, an American or whatever,
A.143: Uh-huh. 
B.144: you know, a foreigner there that,
A.145: Uh-huh. 
B.146: that would be all the more reason that they'd take advantage of you. 
A.147: Oh God, that would be the exact opposite of here. 
B.148: Okay. 
A.149: I mean if you leave something anywhere you might as well forget it. 
B.150: And she told me she said she could tell them for fifteen minutes places not to go in, +
A.151: Uh-huh. 
B.152: in and around Dallas, 
A.153: Uh-huh. 
B.154: and that's where she was from. 
A.155: Uh-huh. That is sad. 
B.156: She said even choosing her apartment she had to be so careful because of being a woman alone, 
A.157: Yeah, yeah. That's,
B.158: You know she had, - there are certain. -
A.159: a big, that's a big thing with me. I live in a one bedroom, I'm single, 
B.160: Uh-huh. 
A.161: and I've, I could live in an apartment, I live in Waco, okay, 
B.162: Oh yeah. 
A.163: and you either live in really low priced housing or you live on the other side of town in the high price apartments. 
B.164: Yeah. 
A.165: And I live, - I don't make a lot of money but I live in the high price apartments simply because I feel safe here -- 
B.166: Yeah. 
A.167: -- and I pay, I'm paying probably the hundred or hundred fifty dollars more than I would be paying somewhere else but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night -- 
B.168: Yeah. 
A.169: -- and that to me is worth the extra money --
B.170: Yeah. 
A.171: -- for me to be, you know, - I feel very safe where I am, you know, instead of, -
B.172: And that, that's why I think if people were more exposed to, uh, -
A.173: Uh-huh. 
B.174: especially, uh, young kids getting out of high school. -
A.175: Uh-huh. 
B.176: I mean at one time they would go into the service,
A.177: Uh-huh. 
B.178: to have the same exposure and, you know, uh, to further their worldliness, so to speak.
A.179: Right. 
B.180: And go to see, uh, foreign countries that they would not necessarily be able to afford to see, 
A.181: Uh-huh. 
B.182: it was like they said, join the Navy to see the world type of thing, you know, 
A.183: Right, right. 
B.184: but nowadays, they don't do that anymore. 
A.185: Huh-uh. 
B.186: It's not a, a thing a, - a lot of young men don't even, uh, have the desire to go into the service. 
A.187: Yeah, they don't even consider it. 
B.188: Or to, uh, you know, do something for someone else. 
A.189: Uh-huh. 
B.190: And I don't know I attributed I think, a lot of that to women working.
A.191: To, -
B.192: You know, to mothers not being at home. 
A.193: Yes! Yes! I was talking to someone yesterday about that. 
B.194: the bonding process, - yeah. 
A.195: And we were saying that the basic, uh, the, the basic ] family is, is disrupted these days, 
B.196: It very definitely is. 
A.197: And so, I think, you know, before the father would work and the mother, you know, would stay home and having that mother there, that base, I think,
B.198: That's right. 
A.199: was a big part of, of family, a big part of, of what, you know, your, your, uh, youngsters thought about, what they did,
B.200: Yeah. 
A.201: you know. 
B.202: And the thing is, like I think a man can afford to support a woman, but the woman affords the luxuries. 
A.203: Uh-huh. 
B.204: In, in other words like anyone can live,
A.205: Uh-huh. 
B.206: on a certain income no matter what it is, 
A.207: Right. 
B.208: you have to,
A.209: Right. 
B.210: so to speak. Okay? It, it's what's important to you. 
A.211: Uh-huh. 
B.212: Now a family, - I, I think that like girls today, have children, 
A.213: Uh-huh. 
B.214: and six weeks later they're back to work. 
A.215: Right. 
B.216: They don't even have a bonding with that child, they,
A.217: Uh-huh. 
B.218: don't eve-, ever see the, - it's, it's the most beautiful thing that happens between a mother and a child.
A.219: Uh-huh. 
B.220: The first, like say, six,
A.221: Uh-huh. 
B.222: years of life. So much, 
A.223: When I call, -
B.224: happens in that period of time, 
A.225: Uh-huh. 
B.226: and I mean once the child's in school if you had a job from say nine to three,
A.227: Uh-huh. 
B.228: big deal, I mean they, they're in school, you're at work. 
A.229: Right. 
B.230: That's great. But it's kids that come home and don't have a mother there --
A.231: Right. 
B.232: -- or the kids are at home in the morning and ... -

A.1: . 
B.2: Where you on the li-, phone a long time? 
A.3: Yeah, I've been sitting here alternately reading and watching television <laughter>. 
B.4: Yeah. 
A.5: You were, he was waiting for what again? 
B.6: To, - he called in to get somebody on the line, it took him about half an hour to find somebody. 
A.7: That's what this was yeah, well, let me go a head and push one okay? 
B.8: Okay. 
A.9: Okay. Well, basically I like comedy shows <laughter>.
B.10: Uh-huh. 
A.11: Uh, MURPHY BROWN, uh, DESIGNING WOMEN . 
B.12: Yeah. 
A.13: Yeah what do you like? 
B.14: Well <laughter>,
A.15: <Laughter>. 
B.16: we don't have a T V, I mean we have two T V -s but neither one of them work, 
A.17: Oh, okay. 
B.18: so for the last year, - I mean we just got married and we decided well, for the first year we, we won't get a T V so I mean I'm totally out of it as far,
A.19: <Laughter>. 
B.20: as T V goes. 
A.21: That's okay we'll been married eleven years and, um, we went through that after about five years of marriage, my old T V that I had from college when we got married finally went out and we went, we made it almost about eighteen months without a television. 
B.22: Really? 
A.23: Yeah, but then all of a sudden when you get one you realize, um, gee <laughter>.
B.24: Yeah. 
A.25: I needed that, you know, and then you get to remote control the stereo phonic,
B.26: <Laughter>. 
A.27: whatever all of those things, 
B.28: V C R, and everything else. 
A.29: oh, yeah, and then you never use the V C R, and now we have two of them and now it's like we're just glad we never went out and bought a compact disk player cause we wouldn't use it <laughter>. 
B.30: Really. 
A.31: Yeah, I mean it's cause your never home, you know, you're working, you're at school. 
B.32: Yeah. 
A.33: Well, I don't know T V shows, what can I tell you, um, basically junk that's on television <laughter>. -
B.34: Yeah. 
A.35: That's my opinion yeah, um, I like things like I just mentioned, have you ever seen MURPHY BROWN, or anything like that? 
B.36: I don't think so <laughter>. 
A.37: You don't think so, oh, that's the one with Candice Bergen in it, um, 
B.38: Well, see another thing was I worked on second shift for like a year and a half, so.
A.39: Yeah, that would do it. 
B.40: I would never see any shows any way and then before that I was in college for four years and I never watched T V then because I didn't have time. 
A.41: Right, nobody does yeah, then, uh-huh. 
B.42: <Laughter>.
A.43: I know. 
B.44: I mean I did watch T V it was soaps and M T V cause the girls I lived with never changed the channels . 
A.45: And the, uh, - well I don't, - you're probably at least ten years younger then I am but I could tell you in school that, uh, the only thing that ever saw in the dorm was, uh, the one soap opera, ALL MY CHILDREN. 
B.46: Yeah. 
A.47: And until then I never paid attention to soap operas. 
B.48: Me too. 
A.49: And to this day twenty years later I'm like, I'm in my thirties, I'm not that old, but I'm going, jeez, I can't believe that thing's still on television <laughter>. 
B.50: I know, I mean I al-, I almost got hooked on it cause everybody would took about it at dinner and everything else it, you know, it was like. -
A.51: Yeah, they, you know, - about the only other kinds of things I like, um, - I like to watch a lot of news, um, don't you miss that with not having a television so far? 
B.52: Um. 
A.53: How long has it been since you've had one? 
B.54: Well, about, almost a year. 
A.55: Oh my God <laughter>. 
B.56: Yeah. 
A.57: Yeah, you've got about another six months and then you'll get one <laughter>. 
B.58: <Laughter> Well,
A.59: By then, -
B.60: I mean I never really watched it much growing up but I thought, you know, my husband would really like miss it because he, he was an only child and he wa-, he's seen a lot of T V. 
A.61: Uh-huh. 
B.62: And I figured oh, no it will never last but.
A.63: Yeah. 
B.64: I mean I don't miss it that much. 
A.65: Yeah, my husband is an only child too and he did miss it that's kind of why we got back after eighteen months, 
B.66: <Laughter> That's funny. 
A.67: <Laughter> and I'm trying to think about the only other show I watch. 
B.68: I've seen CHEERS probably five times and I've seen CROS-, COSBY SHOW probably ten times. 
A.69: Yeah, 
B.70: <Laughter>. 
A.71: I like COSBY, L A LAW is probably, - I've seen CHEERS more then that I hate to admit but, uh, -
B.72: It's pretty cool I like that whenever I watch it. 
A.73: CHEERS? Yeah, I thought it was good, I've actually been to that bar in
Boston it's a nice, you know, it's a pretty funny show. 
B.74: Oh, you have? 
A.75: Yeah. 
B.76: Yeah, I've heard it's pretty cool. 
A.77: It's just a, you know, over priced <laughter> downtown,
B.78: Yeah. 
A.79: Boston yuppie, you know,
B.80: Yeah. 
A.81: tourist attraction. I'm trying to think what else is on television, I know it's like. -
B.82: <Breathing> I watched a lot of T V when the war was on. 
A.83: Yeah, who didn't? Isn't that sad? 
B.84: And then, uh, I like watching a lot of like college basketball and, +
A.85: Uh-huh. 
B.86: and pro football, I mean that sounds kind of stupid but,
A.87: Oh not, no, ]
B.88: I do like it. 
A.89: I like the pro, actually I like pro basket ball as opposed to, I watch pro football but I like the N B A play-offs,
B.90: Yeah. 
A.91: back when like the Pistons were in them and now, - where are you calling from? 
B.92: Uh, Sherman, Texas. 
A.93: Sherman, Texas, oh, 
B.94: Where are you from? 
A.95: I'm in Dallas I was just saying where am I calling you from, you know, well then I don't know if you like the, the Mavericks or not, they haven't been that good this year. Um, we're supposed to talk about television let's see <laughter>, you don't have a T V. 
B.96: So, are you really from Texas though? 
A.97: Yeah, I'm talking to you from Dallas, uh-huh. 
B.98: Well, sounds like you're from up north. 
A.99: My voice you mean? 
B.100: Yeah. 
A.101: Oh, no, that's just because I've moved around and, uh,
B.102: Oh. 
A.103: I'm originally from Pennsylvania, so. -
B.104: I was going to say. 
A.105: <Laughter>.
B.106: Cause I wondered if you really, you know, if had any teams you like watching from up north or something. 
A.107: Uh, actually I'm a big Chicago Bears' fan. 
B.108: Yeah. 
A.109: Real big and, uh, um, I always watch them no matter who's on, of course you like them too, right. 
B.110: Yeah. 
A.111: Do you? 
B.112: Well, I'm from Indiana. 
A.113: Oh, okay. 
B.114: Yeah, so I like the Bears. 
A.115: Yeah, there you go, and then <laughter>, +
B.116: <Laughter>. 
A.117: and, um, I'm trying to think what else I like to watch on television sports wise. I like, +
B.118: I watch, uh, huh. -
A.119: I like tennis so I mean I'm not, I haven't played in years but, um, I just like to watch, you know,
B.120: Yeah. 
A.121: two players really get, go at it, 
B.122: Yeah. 
A.123: It gets boring after a while but I don't, - go ahead. 
B.124: I wa-, used to watch OPRAH a lot in the afternoons,
A.125: OPRAH <laughter>. 
B.126: before I went to work and stuff and I see her every once in awhile like if I go workout at T I, 
A.127: Uh-huh. 
B.128: you know, they have those T V -s right,
A.129: Yeah, on the, 
B.130: in front of the treadmills, 
A.131: on the tracks yeah, is sh-, -
B.132: I don't know she's not as good as she use to be but, -
A.133: Maybe cause she got chubby again or something, 
B.134: <Laughter> her disposition's gone downhill. 
A.135: Was she, was her show big when you where in school since you haven't been out that long? 
B.136: Was what? 
A.137: Was her show big when you where in college, since you,
B.138: Oh, yeah. 
A.139: haven't been that long? 
B.140: It's pretty cool, 
A.141: Was it? 
B.142: I mean back then - and the show, did you see the show where she lost all of that fat? 
A.143: Yeah I saw reruns of it, 
B.144: She pu-, she wheeled it out on a cart . 
A.145: I saw tapes of her <laughter>, yeah. 
B.146: That was so cool, and then man she's really porked out again I guess but, -
A.147: Gee, I know isn't that terrible. 
B.148: Yeah. 
A.149: I know I guess with that money who cares <laughter>. 
B.150: <Laughter>.
A.151: I don't know. 
B.152: I'd eat too. 
A.153: Let's see what else is on television. Oh, if you don't have a V C R we just got one after nine years don't even spend your money on it. 
B.154: Really. 
A.155: Yeah, cause, you know, if you like movies like we do you do it once in awhile and then, you know, you see it when it first comes out if you really want to see it and then it usually comes on television within two years.
B.156: Yeah, we got, +
A.157: You know. 
B.158: we've got the dollar Cinema in Sherman so we usually see like first-rate movies,
A.159: Yeah, 
B.160: right away. 
A.161: really, that's television I don't know in general on this project we're suppose to talk <laughter> about - so I mean, -
B.162: Yeah I'm sorry. 
A.163: That's okay, 
B.164: <Laughter>. 
A.165: don't, - I mean, I, I always . 
B.166: Well, it's hard to talk about something, it's like me talking about taxes or something, 
A.167: Yeah. 
B.168: I feel bad cause I mean,
A.169: Oh, that's okay. 
B.170: I should know something about T V shows. 
A.171: I had one lady one time they called in I just signed up my husband had been on this project, um, and I, I, she called in and it was all about, we don't have children and it was all about, um, sending your kids to college,
B.172: <Laughter>. 
A.173: and why you would advise them. And she was from Boston, and she, I shouldn't talk about this but she was, <laughter> pretend she was a television show, and sh-, she was very snooty and, uh, her kids were going to places like
Amherst and B U and I said I didn't know what that was I she went, oh, and I thought, um, - so I know, 
B.174: <Laughter>. 
A.175: I mean it's like don't worry about it television at least, you know, everybody's,
B.176: <Laughter>. 
A.177: at least seen television. During the war did you laugh when they had that man on, uh, what was his name Wolf Blitzer? 
B.178: What was that? 
A.179: That guy that was a reporter for C N N. 
B.180: Uh-huh. 
A.181: His name is Wolf Blitzer. Did you see it, him when he was doing the coverage of the Gulf? 
B.182: Um, I might of. I forget. Was he the guy that got captured? 
A.183: Uh, no, that was the other guy from C B S, oh,
B.184: Oh. 
A.185: what was his name, uh, 
B.186: <Laughter>. 
A.187: I can't remember <laughter> his name. 
B.188: Yeah, but what about this Wolf guy? 
A.189: Yeah, but just th- , - they made jokes about him like on the CARSON SHOW and all of that, 
B.190: Oh. 
A.191: Jay Leno. 
B.192: You know, what my absolutely favorite show is? 
A.193: Uh-huh. 
B.194: DAVID LETTERMAN. I love that guy. 
A.195: Yeah, he's funny. 
B.196: And SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE, I use to watch that like I'd come home from second shift and watch him like for an hour and a half, he's great. 
A.197: Yeah, SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE has changed a lot if you haven't seen it in about a year. 
B.198: Huh-uh. 
A.199: I mean I haven't seen it in a couple of months but, -
B.200: Has it gotten better? 
A.201: <Breathing> Uh, yeah, actually I think it has, I mean they finally like and some of those people - they really have funny characters on there. 
B.202: Really. 
A.203: Yeah, they have one character on there they just call it Pat and they, you don't know if it's a man or a woman <laughter>. 
B.204: <Laughter>. 
A.205: And they say well, they're trying to deduce what he or she is, 
B.206: Uh-huh. 
A.207: so to see if it's a female they say well do you carry a purse and Pat says no I carry a fanny pack <laughter>. 
B.208: <Laughter>.
A.209: So you still don't know because a fanny pack is man, or now days, you know. -
B.210: Yeah. 
A.211: Yeah it's weird <laughter>. 
B.212: <Laughter> That's funny. 
A.213: Yeah, it's, yeah it is pretty funny I mean they do some crazy things. 
B.214: Like when WAYNE'S WORLD, - I love that. 
A.215: Yeah, WAYNE'S WORLD, hey man <laughter>. 
B.216: <Laughter>.
A.217: And what's that other one where they, <laughter> where they do the, um, skits, well, you've must have seen it recently? 
B.218: Well, I don't know, I've seen it off and on, I think. 
A.219: You probably have some friends that have television <laughter>? 
B.220: Uh? 
A.221: I said you probably have some friends that have television <laughter>. 
B.222: Yeah, yeah. That's where I've seen it because I've seen it off and on probably. 
A.223: You know, I mean you're not totally out of the loop. 
B.224: Yeah. 
A.225: I mean, yeah. 
B.226: We, we bug our we, you know, - one friend of ours got rid of his because we motivated him because we, you know, cause we were getting along out ours so he sold his. 
A.227: <Laughter>.
B.228: But the rest of our friends we go and watch them. 
A.229: Yeah, I mean you really, you can do without one but after awhile it will start, um, you know, - I mean you just kind of all of sudden - cause you're going well jeez you hear about something that somebody else talked about, 
B.230: Uh-huh. 
A.231: and you just end up doing it but if you haven't been married that long, you know,
B.232: <Laughter>. 
A.233: you're doing other things <laughter>. 
B.234: <Laughter> Is that on tape? 
A.235: Is that on tape, <laughter> there you go, yeah. 
B.236: That's funny. 
A.237: Oh, my what else is on I don't know what did they watch in college when you where in, - where did you go to school? 
B.238: Oh, Purdue. 
A.239: Oh, that's a good school. 
B.240: Yeah. 
A.241: Yeah, I know about that. They don't have a southern accent up there though. 
B.242: No. 
A.243: You must be native Texan? 
B.244: Why do I, +
A.245: Well your from Indiana, yeah. 
B.246: Do I have a southern accent? 
A.247: Oh, real southern, yeah. 
B.248: Are you serious? 
A.249: Uh-huh. 
B.250: I've been here three years. 
A.251: Deep one, you have a deep one, yeah <laughter>. 
B.252: Oh, wow, that's scary. 
A.253: It is, um, at Purdue - I'm trying to think, I went to high school in Chicago, I'm trying to think what Purdue kids watch. 
B.254: We watch, uh, M T V twenty four hours a day and then every now and then they'd DAYS, they taped DAYS, you know,
A.255: Uh-huh. 
B.256: and watch it like four or five times a day. 
A.257: Okay. 
B.258: That's the girls I lived with and, you know, other then that I'm sure they watched, -
A.259: Do you know that I've never, I think other then accept on a commercial or on news coverage or something,
B.260: Yeah. 
A.261: like entertainment tonight I've never seen M T V? 
B.262: You aren't missing anything <laughter>. 
A.263: That's kind of what I've heard <laughter>. 
B.264: It's pretty bad. 
A.265: I mean that's, - yeah. 
B.266: Especially if you have kids. Don't let them watch it. 
A.267: Yeah. No we don't and I wouldn't even I mean I don't even have cable I don't think it's worth ten to thirty bucks a month to pay,
B.268: No. 
A.269: somebody, uh, to, you know, give me a hundred and fifty, um <laughter>,
B.270: <Laughter>. 
A.271: channel access to something I'm never going to, - I mean my neighbor her husband sits in front of the television all of time and they've only been married five years have a cute one year old kids I swear to God he works from eight, 
